ing the Pope's Holiness, and the said Cardinals, I said, your Highness for their pains was much beholden unto them; nevertheless, I said, that they might on the other side ponder such pains as your Highness hath taken for them, in part declared by me; which was much more than for them to sit in their Chairs two or three hours in a week, to hear the justice of your defence in this cause. And as touching the manner used in the said Disputation, I said, his Lordship knew well that it was by the Party adverse, which all manner of ways goeth about to fatigate and make weary the Consistory of the Disputations, specially in chiding, scolding, and alledging Laws and Decisions that never were, nor spoken of by any Doctor, and vainly continuing the time, to the intent that the Pope's Holiness, and the Cardinals, dissolving the Consistory, and not giving audience, the said Party, without Law, Reason, or any good ground, might attain their desire, and keep under the Truth, that it should not appear; and if any thing was sharply spoken of our Party, I said it was done only for our defence, and to shew the errors and falsity of the Queen's Advocates in their Allegations, wherein, I said, they should not be spared. And forasmuch as on the behalf of your Highness there was nothing spoken but that which was grounded upon Law, and declared in what place, so that it cannot be denied; I desired his Lordship that he would continue his goodness in this Matter, as your Highness's especial trust was he would do; and that we might always, as we were accustomed, have recourse unto the same in all our Business for his good help and counsel. His Lordship not yet satisfied, said, That as concerning the Order, the Pope's Holiness might interpretate and declare what he meaned by it; and as touching the Conclusions, they were superfluous, impertinent, and calumnious, only proposed to defer the Matter. I answered, and said, That to interpretate the said Order, where it is clear out of doubt, the Pope's Holiness considering the promise made on ShroveSunday, with my Protestation foresaid, and the execution of the said Order to that time, in divers Consistories observed, could not by right interpretate the said Order, admitting disputation upon all the Conclusions; and of this I said, That if such alterations were made, without any cause given of your Highness's Party, there was little certainty to be reckoned upon amongst them. And as touching the superfluity and impertinency of the said Conclusions, said, That that was the saying of the Party adverse, that did not understand the same Conclusions. And further, that such Conclusions as were clamorously, by the Advo cates of the Party adverse, alledged to be superfluous, his

Lordship in the Disputation and trial thereof in the Consistory, did manifestly perceive that it was not so. And where it was alledged the said Conclusions to be calumnious, and laid in to defer the Process; I answered, That we might well alledg again the Counsel of the Party adverse the thing against us alledged, and say truly, that we were calumniously dealed withal, seeing the matters were so just and clear, and yet not admitted. Then his Lordship went further, and said, that Impedimentum allegatum erat perpetuum, because your Highness, ex causa reipublicæ, could not come out your Realm, and quia dignitas vestra est perpetua; and also, quod Causa requirit celeritatem. To this I said, that his Lordship mistook the Matter, for we said not in the Matters that your Highness could not go out of your Realm to no place, but we said, that the same could not go, ad loca tam remota, as Rome is; so that it was not perpetuum impedimentum. And to the other I shewed him a Text, and the common opinion of Doctors in a Cause of Matrimony, being inter Regem et Reginam, which took away the thing that he had said. Then his Lordship said, That it was enough that the place were sure to the Procurator by the Chapter, Cum olim de testibus. I said, That that Chapter did not prove that Allegation, and that they mistook the Text that so did understand it, for the Alternative that is in that Text is not referred ad locum tutum, but ad ordinem Citationis inchoanda persona principali, aut ejus procuratore: and so Petrus de Anchorano understandeth that Text; and otherwise understanding the same it should be against the Chapter, Ex parte de appellatione, and the common opinion there. Then he said, that Aretine saith, Quod sufficit quum locus sit tutus procuratori. I said, that, under his favour, Aretine saith the contrary, for he saith, Quod partibus debet locus tutus assig-· nari si poterit, et si non poterit partibus, detur procuratoribus. Then his Lordship said to me, That I knew well he began to set forward these Disputations, and that he would do the best he could for the furtherance thereof.

The 19th of this present I went with your Highness's Ambassadors to the Pope, and delivered his Holiness in writing those things that were done in the Disputation of the 13th of this: And then your Ambassadors were in hand with the Pope to alter the Intimation, and to put out the term peremptory, and other that were exclusory of further Disputations to be had upon the same Conclusions. The Pope's Holiness said, That Disputations was no act Judicial requiring to be in the Consistory; and therefore he said, he would call certain Congregations of Cardinals, on Friday and Monday following, to hear the Disputations. VOL. I, PART II.

Then I William Benet said, That that could not stand very well with the Decree of the Intimation, which was peremp. tory for any further Disputations after the 20th of this present; and therefore I spake that the same term peremptory might be put out of the Intimation, alledging withal, that upon the said Friday or Monday it was no time to hear the Disputation, being so nigh after; and that his Holiness hitherto hath observed the Consistory for the Disputations, which Consistory cannot be unto after Easter, if the manner of the Court be observed. Then the Pope said, he might call a Consistory when he would, as he hath done in making of Cardinals, an Act much more solemn than a Disputation. To that, I said, his Holiness might so do if he would; howbeit, it should be præter solitum morem: and therefore desired his Holiness to consider therein the order before assigned, and that this term peremptory would not stand with the order. His Holiness then willed we should inform the Cardinals, Anchona, and de Monte, and so we did; Anchona shewed himself somewhat reasonable, and was contented the term peremptory should be put out. De Monte said that the Pope would promise to hear the Conclusions disputed in Congregations, calling thereto certain Cardinals, so that the term peremptory should not be prejudicial. Then I Edward Karne desired him, that if the said term should not be prejudicial, that it might be striken out, for I told him plainly that I would not stand to words, the writing shewing the contrary; adding withal, that I would not dispute in this term, tanquam peremptorio, but would manifestly show and protest, That I, with other your Highness's Counsel, were ready to defend the Conclusions published, according to the order given, and hitherto observed; alledging also, that the Conclusions being justified, the Matters ought to be admitted; and that if the Pope's Holiness and the Cardinals would not give audience to me and your Highness's said Counsel, for the manifest trial and showing of the truth, they should give us cause to complain upon them, and to cry out, usque ad Sidera, your Highness's Ambassadors all affirming the same. Then the said Cardinal de Monte said, that the Pope's Holiness would provide for the Disputations, notwithstanding the term peremptory assigned, and said also, that in the Morning he would speak with the Pope, and give your Ambassadors and me an an

swer.

In the morning, which was the 20th of this present, the said Cardinal would, that nothing of the Decree of Intimation should be manifested, because the other part had a Copy thereof, but would the Pope's Holiness to give an or

der that the word peremptory should be only for Disputations to be had in the Consistory, and not in Congregations, in which Congregations, the Conclusions remaining might be disputed; and tho they had drawn out this Order, yet because it was nothing plain, neither certain to be conformable to the former Order, I would have had the said Cardinal to speak to the said Datary for to make it as afore: and he was then contented, howbeit the Pope's Holiness commanded all the Cardinals to their places, so that I could not have the said Order, and was driven thereby either to dispute and accept the term, tanquam peremptorium, or else to fly the Disputations, giving occasion to the adverse Party to say, that I diffided in the justness of the Matters, and defence of the Conclusions. Whereupon your Highness's Ambassadors and we, with other your Learned Counsel, concluded, that I Edward Karne should protest, De non consentiendo in termino, tanquam peremptorio, and afterward to proceed to the proposing of the Conclusions, and so I did by mouth according to the tenour of a Copy, which here withal your Highness shall receive. When I had protested, and the Pope had spoken this word Acceptamus, the Queen's Advocate began to protest that they would dispute no more, and desired his Holiness to proceed in the principal Cause. Then I Edward Karne said, That the Pope's Holiness did well perceive, that the Conclusions were published and proposed, not only for them to dispute, but also for all other, come who would, for the information of his Holiness, and the whole Consistory. And therefore 1 said, that tho they would not dispute, yet I was there, with other your Highness's Learned Counsel, to propose the Conclusions, according to the Order given, justifying them to be Canonical, and ready to defend them against all those that would gainsay them; and thereupon desired the Pope's Holiness, that tho the Counsel of the Party Adverse would not dispute, yet I with your Highness's Learned Counsel might be heard again; against which my desire the Queen's Advocate made great exclamations, till at the last the Pope commanded him to silence, and willed us to go to the Conclusions, which we did.

And here now it is determined, That we shall have no more Disputations in the Consistory, but the rest of the Conclusions to be disputed in Congregations before the Pope, purposely made for the same; and what therein shall be determined or done, your Highness from time to time shall thereof by us be advertised, and of all other our doings in that behalf.

And as concerning the Letters which your Highness sent

by Francis the Courier, of the last of February, as well to the Pope, as to me Edward Karne, for the admission of me and the Matter excusatory, we shall, according to your Highness's pleasure and order assigned, in the common Letter sent unto us by your said Highness, proceed and do therein as may be most beneficial and profitable for the

same.

And thus most humbly we commend us to your Highness, beseeching Almighty God to preserve the same in felicity and health many years. At Rome the 28th of

March 1532.

Your Highness's most humble Subjects,

Servants, and Chaplains,

WILLIAM BENET.

EDWARD KARNE.

EDMOND Bonner.

XLV.

Another Letter concerning the Process at Rome. An Original. (Cotton Libr. Vitel. B. 13.)

PLEASETH it your Highness, sithen our Letters of the 23 of March, here hath been great labour, and soliciting, to bring the Disputation publick out of the Consistory kept once in the week into the Congregations, to be observed and kept before the Pope's Holiness and the Cardinals, in such place, and as oft as should please them; to the intent, as we perceived, that the said Disputation might be the sooner ended, and not take such effect as it was devised for. And upon this great importune labour, I Edward Karne was monished oftentimes to send Conclusions to be proposed in the said Congregations, as well in Palm-Sunday week, as in Easter-week, as appeareth by the Copies of the Intimations sent herewithal to your Highness: Upon which Intimations I delivered certain Conclusions, according to the order taken at the beginning, with a Protestation devised by your Grace's Counsel here, De non recedendo ab eodem ordine, et de proponendo easdem Conclusiones in Consistorio, juxta eundem ordinem et non aliter. That notwithstanding the Pope's Holiness caused me to be monished again, cum Comminatione, that if I would not come in, cum Advocatis, the third day of April, procederet ad ulteriora protestatione me a prævia non obstante. Whereupon, with the advice of your said Learned Counsel, I conceived a Protestation, and the same delivered to the Pope's Holiness the said third day in