Chancellor of the Exchequer. He wished to know whether the pension of the President of the Board of Controul depended upon the continuance of the East India Company's charter? If so, considering also his former attachment, it appeared that the earl of Buckinghamshire must have a direct and obvious interest in supporting the monopoly so grievously complained of by the nation.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer thought it extremely probable that the grant depended upon the contingency of the renewal of the charter. He could not see why the previous employment of his lordship should render him unfit, under the present circumstances, to fill the office of President of the Board of Controul. Certain it was that there was no legal incompetency, and no other objection could be assigned.

Mr. Whitbread, leaving the earl of Buck ingamshire out of the question, thought that he might assume, from the known motives that influenced men in general, that any other person but the noble earl might be induced more strenuously to support a cause in the success of which he was so largely interested. He was not surprized that the right hon. gentleman had fixed upon an interested individual, considering the great difficulty he had found in discovering persons who would consent to serve under him.

The Motion was then agreed to.

HOUSE OF LORDS.

Friday, April 10.

OFFICES IN REVERSION BILL.] The House resolved itself into a Committee on the Offices Reversion Bill. On the clause being read for limiting the duration of the Bill to the 28th of February, 1814,

Earl Grosvenor rose to move his proposed amendment. This he had resolved to submit to their lordships, though by no means certain, that it was the exact course which he ought to pursue. He had felt considerable difficulty in deciding in his own mind, whether he ought not rather to have abandoned the Bill to its fate, or whether he ought not to have proposed the immediate abolition of the practice of granting Offices in Reversion; but considering the length of time to which he should move to extend the suspension, it might certainly be virtually considered as an abolition. His lordship then adverted to the strange conduct of ministers, with

regard to the subject under consideration. They had agreed that this was a mere trifle, a nugatory measure; and yet, though it was looked to with great anxiety by the people, they had always contrived to get rid of it without doing any thing. He was sorry not to see the President of the Council in his place, (lord Sidmouth,) who had strenuously supported the abolition; but he hoped that noble viscount would appear in the House before the close of the discussion, and repeat his former sentiments. He trusted he would at last persuade his colleagues to adopt his opinion. After considering the absurdity of the preamble of the Bill, which he had particularly noticed on a former occasion, he asked why the law offices were excepted? It might be said that this would much diminish the emoluments of some of the judges, emoluments, which they had been taught to calculate upon, when they accepted their situations; but where was the difficulty in this? A remuneration might be granted to the present judges; and those who might succeed them would have no reason to complain, as they would be fully aware of the new regulation. He declared, that in reprobating, as he did, this practice of granting offices in reversion, he had no intention to cast any personal stigma on those who at present held them. Many noble and honourable men who held such situations, had acquired their right to them before they could know the meaning of the word reversion. Many of them were probably in the first stage of infancy when they were made reversionists; and therefore to be such, could in them be considered as no crime. He concluded by moving, as an amendment, that the suspension, instead of being continued till 1814, should be continued till 1840. If this amendment should be adopted, he would then move some alteration in the preamble, in order to make the Bill con

sistent.

The Earl of Lauderdule presumed it was the intention of his noble friend, if his amendment was agreed to, to propose an amendment in the preamble, to leave out the words referring to proceedings now pending in the House of Commons, otherwise it would be in truth a most alarming symptom, that an enquiry pending in the House of Commons, with a view to the reform of abuses, was to last till the year 1840. He would, however, support the amendment, in order to get rid of the repeated discussions, upon this subject,

which he thought tended grossly to mislead the public, and engender a supposition that an important saving could be made, which was not the fact. The whole number of offices held in reversion (with the exception of three to which regulations were already applied on the termination of the existing interests,) did not amount to more than forty, and the whole sum to be saved, supposing even the whole of these offices to be abolished, which was no part of the present measure, would not amount to more than 35,000l. per annum. It was therefore misleading the public to attach any importance to this Bill, which in truth would effect nothing for their benefit. With regard to the influence of the crown, he was fully persuaded it would not be at all reduced by such means. Instead of diminishing that influence, he rather thought the abolition of this practice of granting offices in reversion would increase it. But still, though he thought the measure perfectly nugatory, to say the least of it, though he thought that it was deceiving the people to hold out any expectations of relief from it, he should vote for his noble friend's amendment, because it would prevent that constant discussion on the subject, which had the pernicious effect of making the people believe that corruption was chiefly prevalent among the higher ranks, and in the two Houses of Parliament. This, he contended, was a mistake. The direct influence of the crown was much less now in the two Houses, and had been less since his political career commenced, than at a former period. (Hear! hear! from the ministerial benches; a smile, and a movement of dissent from lord Grey.) He maintained that this was the fact. Thirty or forty parliamentary offices had been abolished; and with respect to the army and navy, it was an ascertained fact, that at the end of sir Robert Walpole's administration there were more officers of the army and navy in parliament than there were at the present moment. It was not in parliament, but in the country at large, that the influence of the crown had increased, and in the country at large, owing to the immense increase of the army and navy, and the revenue, the influence of the crown had enormously increased. In order to prove that the influence of the crown was much more prevalent out of doors than in parliament, he had only to observe, that two dissolutions of parliament had lately taken place much

more speedily than they would have done, if the crown had been so much more powerful in parliament than out of it. The perpetual agitation of this question, and the hopes held out from it, had the farther pernicious effect of turning the atten tion of the people from objects of infinitely more importance to their interests. The reversions to be suspended by this Bill, he repeated, would hardly amount to 35,000l. a year in the whole. What relief would such a saving afford in an expenditure of about eighty millions? It was a perfect farce to talk of such a thing; and he was satisfied that if the people were really aware of how little advantage the aboli. tion of the practice of granting offices in reversion would be to them, the measure would effectually lose its popularity. It was from the unfounded expectation of relief from it, that it had so much occupied the attention of the people. Such were his opinions on this subject,-certainly not influenced by any expectation of procuring a reversionary grant for himself. The course of his political life had not been such as to warrant any charge of the kind against him. But for the reason which he had stated, he should certainly vote for the amendment, with the understanding, that if it should be carried, the necessary alteration to make the Bill consist ent should be made in the preamble.

The Earl of Darnley agreed, that, in an abstract point of view, the measure was one of very little importance, and the effect likely to be produced by it next to nothing. He did not think, however, that the agitation of the measure, which extended to every denomination of persons throughout the country, could be considered as casting any reflection on members of parliament. The public, he conceived, from the frequent discussion of this mea sure, expected their lordships to turn their minds to the consideration of public abuses in general-and the system of sinecures and reversions he considered a monstrous abuse. In point of principle therefore, he thought this Bill of importance; and he would vote for it, and for any extension his noble friend thought fit to propose.

Earl Grey did not intend to have addressed their lordships on the present question, on which he had so repeatedly delivered his sentiments; but he thought it indispensable, not so much to argue that which had been so often argued before, as to disclaim any participation in the opinions stated by his noble friend (lord

variance with the present administration; but what he blamed them most for was this, that they had opposed every measure introduced for the reformation of public abuses. No administration could hope to obtain the real confidence of the crown and of the people, that would not assist, not only in reforming the abuses which were connected with the Bill before them, but those which had crept into the constisution of the legislature itself. His lordship concluded by stating his concurrence in the amendment.

The Earl of Lauderdale disclaimed any hostility to economical reform, and said, he believed he had not stated any one principle, in the course of what had fallen from him, incompatible with as strong a desire for substantial economy as that by which his noble friend was actuated. The matter at issue was this-whether the Bill would produce any particle of economy? It held out a prospect of a future economical reform. But it was rather unfortunate, that, five years since, it held out the same prospect, but to this day no good had been effected by it. They were, however, informed, that the Bill now pending in the other House would fully bring into effect all the benefits of actual economy. For his own part, he thought the attention of the public had much better be directed to subjects of real radical reform.-Substantial measures for curbing the influence of the crown would be of much greater service, than those which held out a hope, but gave no relief whatever to the public. He contended that the direct influence of the crown in the two Houses of Parliament was diminished. But though that was the fact, he admitted that the private influence, throughout the country, had increased to an extent which threatened to overthrow the constitution.

The Earl of Liverpool did not mean to discuss the principle of the Bill, but would confine himself to a few observations on the amendment, and on the observations which had fallen from the noble lords op posite. With respect to the amendment, it was not, as was usually the case, an amendment to farther the object of the Bill, but went to destroy altogether the principle on which it proceeded. It was not now the question whether sinecures and reversions should be abolished-but whether, with reference to certain enquiries, now pending in the other House, they would, for a limited time, suspend the appointment of such situations till the result

of those inquiries was known? Therefore, the proposition contained in the Bill, the provisions of which would expire in two years, was reasonable. But it was a mockery, with reference to that inquiry, to enact a suspension for 26 years, as the amendment proposed. He was grieved that so much importance should be attached to a measure, so trifling in itself, and so insignificant with respect to the people, that many would be inclined to believe that it was introduced rather to divert their feelings from matters of greater interest, than as a real object. With respect to the influence of the crown, he had some years ago closely examined that subject, and he then perfectly convinced himself, that that influence was not then half so great as it had been 30 years antecedent. It was not a question of office only, but it was well known, that at the period to which he had alluded, a species of influence was resorted to, which was not now in existence. As to the influence created by the increase of the revenue, and of the army and navy, it was difficult to form an opinion, particularly a just one; but he was not therefore bound to credit what was stated by the noble earl. He believed, that, although the navy and army were, compared with any former war establishment, increased ten-fold, the influence derived from them had much diminished.-The country did not now hear of officers being deprived of their commissions for voting against the minister-as was the case with the great earl of Chatham, when he opposed sir R. Walpole. Look ing to the present period, he believed, if any noble lord examined the subject candidly, he would find that there never was a time, in this or any other country, when, in the army and navy, there was less attention paid to political opinion.-He did not mean to say that no preference existed

for there could not be imagined a state of things, where personal affection, and political attachments, were not in some degree attended to--and it was right it should be so. But no time had ever occurred in which adventitious circumstances were so little regarded. Indeed, amongst those who were possessed of military and naval appointments, there were, he was certain, as many persons connected with those who opposed, as with those who supported, the executive government. Indeed, the cir cumstances of the country were such, that the great and only principle on which government acted, was to select those