Second Reading deferred till To- Standing Committee, deferred till Wed

Second Reading deferred till Monday MARRIED PERSONS' SMALL INDUSnext.

Speech indicates revision by the Member. An Asterisk (*) at the commencement of a

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Thursday, 16th April 1896.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.

BELFAST CORPORATION AND LON-
DONDERRY IMPROVEMENT BILLS.

Member. It was represented to him that if the Catholics' case was to be properly put forward, he (Mr. Knox) should not be left to fight the case as the only legal Member, that it was necessary to have on that Committee also a member of the Irish Bar, who should be familiar with the details of this question, and have practical experience of municipal law. His hon, and learned Friend the Member for Louth having consented, somewhat unwillingly, to go on the Committee, the hon. Member for Meri

SIR WILLIAM WALROND (Devon, onethshire said that he would have Tiverton) moved :—

"That Mr. Dillon, Sir James Haslett, Mr. Knox, and Mr. Tomlinson be Members of the Select Committee, with five Members to be added by the Committee of Selection.”

no objection to waive the right of the Liberal Party to be represented on that Committee. He (Mr. Knox) imagined the thing was settled. Already the people of the two places were fully informed about the facts. In both *MR. VESEY KNOX (Londonderry) Belfast and Derry there was a Com said, he had to bring before the House mittee elected by public meeting, prea matter he was very sorry to have to sided over by the Bishop of the diocese, trouble the House with, but in the in- and fully representing the Catholics of terests of his constituents, and in the Belfast and Derry respectively. These interests of the Catholics of Derry and Committees had previously adopted resoBelfast, he felt bound to state to the lutions asking that he, as the Member House the facts which concerned that for Derry, and either the Member for Motion. The Belfast and Derry Cor- Louth or the Member for Cork, who were poration Bills, as the House would perfectly familiar with the technical deremember, were of a semi-political tails of the question, should be placed on character. The Catholics of Derry and the Committee with him. Those resoluBelfast opposed these Bills on grounds tions, he was told, were communicated which he did not, in any way, wish to to the Whips of his own Party. He heard repeat now. It was thought a hardship nothing more about what was going on by the House that the Catholics of until Tuesday last, when, to his great Derry and Belfast, in addition to the confusion, he saw upon the Notice Paper costs of promotion, of which they would the Motion in the name of the hon. have to bear their share as ratepayers, Baronet (Sir W. Walrond), which proshould also have to pay counsel to posed that the name of the hon. Member fight their case, which was really a for East Mayo should be placed on this semi-public case; and the Chief Secre- Committee. The hon. Member for East tary consented that the Committee should Mayo, he had no doubt, would wish to be made a hybrid Committee in order serve on this Committee as a politician that two Irish Members familiar with the and an Irish Member from motives legal aspects of this question should be which they could quite understand. He placed upon the Committee, who would did not wish to say anything which he be able to express the views of the could avoid. All he had to say about Belfast and Derry Catholics without the hon. Member for East Mayo was their having to go to the large expense that he was not a lawyer, that he was of fighting this matter by counsel. It not familiar with these legal questions, would then have been theoretically pos- and that he had no knowledge of Irish sible for the Liberal Party to insist on municipal law. For these reasons the having one of the four Members hon. Member could not be expected, on nominated by the House to the hybrid Committee. He went, therefore, to the hon. Member for Merionethshire (Mr. T. E. Ellis), and he thought the hon. Member for Louth also spoke with the hon. VOL. XXXIX [FOURTH SERIES.]

that Committee, to express in the same way as one who had that knowledge the views of the Catholics of Derry and Belfast. It appeared that some information reached the people of Belfast on the 2 Z

That the local solicitor wire at once to Mr.

Dillon and Mr. Ellis, and to his Parliamentary agents, representing these views. That the solicitor communicate to Mr. Knox these resolutions and urge upon him the importance of having us saved the expense of counsel."

make his protest against this proposal. He felt it his duty to do so publicly, and to say that he would take no responsibility upon himself, under these circumstances, for the conduct of the case of the Catholics of Belfast. He would do his best, but he did not profess to be able alone to obtain the just rights of the Catholics and to save them from a very heavy expense. He begged to oppose the Motion. ["Hear, hear!"]

Monday that the hon. Member for East Mayo was to be put upon this Committee. The people of Belfast immediately met, and they passed unanimously, as he was informed, a resolution praying that the hon. Member for Louth and himself should serve on this Committee on their behalf, and they did so for the express and very natural reason that they did not want to have to go to the great expense of raising money to appear before the Committee by counsel. The Catholics MR. JOHN DILLON (Mayo, E.) said, of Derry, when they had the informa- that so far as he was aware, the course tion, immediately met under the presi- pursued by the hon. Member for Derry dency of the Administrator at a public City was a departure from the practice meeting in St. Columb's Hall, Derry, of the House. For his part, he did not and passed a resolution which he thought believe the hon. Member had served the it his duty to bring before the House-interests of the Catholics of Belfast or of "That, having regard to the complications Derry by the speech which he had just and legal difficulties likely to arise in the dis- made. The hon. Member had adopted a cussion and amendment of the Derry Bill, it is very peculiar course. He belonged, or impossible to dispense with an Irish lawyer professed to belong, to a Party in that acquainted with such matters either on the ComHouse, and so long as he belonged to mittee or as counsel. That, as there are competent Irish lawyers in the Irish Party, it seems any Party in the House, he was bound hard that we should be put to the expense of to observe the customs and traditions of employing counsel in opposition to the Bill. that Party [Nationalist cheers]—and so long as he professed before his constituents to support that Party, he ought to confine a discussion of the character which he had initiated there that day to the councils of that Party. What had He did not desire to blame the been the course that had been adopted by hon. Baronet for putting the Motion the hon. Member? He did not communiupon the Paper; but he thought it his cate, as it was his duty to communicate, duty to his constituents to bring the to him (Mr. Dillon) or to his colleagues matter before the House. He had com- in the Party any particular desire that municated with the hon. Member for he entertained as to the composition of East Mayo to try by every means in his this Committee. The hon. Member compower to induce him to withdraw his municated with him on the morning he name, but he had absolutely refused to saw the notice placed in accordance with do so, and he had deliberately chosen to the usual custom on the Notice Paper. put this additional burden upon the Yes, but the hon. Member had forgotten Catholics of Derry and Belfast. In the to say that his communication was of a case of the people of Derry this was threatening and extremely offensive particularly cruel, for they had every character. The hon. Member announced year to subscribe for political purposes that he intended to publish it in the more than the whole of Connaught. newspapers. He (Mr. Dillon) did not It was quite impossible for him to fight think the House of Commons had any their case on the Committee single- desire, more than was absolutely neceshanded against the leading lawyers of sary, to go into this matter. What he the Parliamentary Bar. He had men- complained of was that such a subject tioned to the hon. Member the name of should have been inflicted on the House Mr. T. Harrington, as well as that of at all. The action of the hon. Member Mr. T. M. Healy, as one who seemed to for Derry compelled him to do what he him (Mr. Knox) to meet all the require- did with the greatest possible reluctance, ments; but the hon. Member for East and that was to state the facts connected Mayo refused to allow his name to be with this matter, and also bring under added. He (Mr. Knox) admitted his the notice of the House a communication powerlessness, but he felt it his duty to he had received in connection with the Mr. Vesey Knox.

appointment of this Committee, and accept the version given by the hon. which he thought constituted a breach Member for Derry City as to what had of the privileges of the House. After passed between him and the Chief Whip reading the communication which he had of the Liberal Party when this Comreceived on the previous day he would mittee was to be constructed. But he state, for the information of the House, knew what had passed between himself all the facts, so far as he was concerned, and the Irish Party in reference to the connected with the selection of the names matter. He was told, as one of the on this Committee. The letter he had Whips of the Irish Party, to communireceived was from a firm of solicitors in cate with one of the Whips of the the city, who, as he understood, had Opposition as to whether the latter charge of the opposition to the Bill, and would be willing to waive their right who, as it appeared to him, had sought to a seat on the Committee and thereby to manipulate a Committee of the House allow the Irish Party to be represented in the interests of their clients. The by two of its Members, inasmuch as the letter was as follows:

"We have been instructed by our clients, the solicitors to the Derry Catholic Ratepayers' Association, to inform you that in order to avoid the expense of counsel, they consider that the presence of a competent Irish lawyer, such as Mr. T. M. Healy, on the Committee of the Derry and Belfast Bill is absolutely necessary. These instructions were telegraphed to us by our clients as soon as they heard that you had been nominated by Sir William Walrond to serve with Mr. Knox."

He submitted that it was a breach of the privileges of the House, for here they had a firm of solicitors seeking to manipulate a Committee, and to nominate Members on that Committee. It appeared to him to be an extraordinary proceeding. He did not, however, think he would be acting justly towards the firm if he were not to state that he received that day from them a letter, which he would describe as between an apology and an explanation, which he he would read:

"We are sorry to learn that exception has been taken to our letter of yesterday's date. We certainly thought there could be no impropriety in our conveying to you the views of our clients, who represent the Catholics of Derry. We do not see that, acting on the instructions of our clients we have committed any impropriety. If we did so we sincerely regret it and hope you will pardon us."

matters to be dealt in were purely Irish. The Whip of the Opposition sent him a message to say that he was quite willing to do so, and it then remained in his hands, or in the hands of his Party, to nominate two names, and not in the hands of the hon. Member for North Derry. If the Member for Derry City had any particular views to bring forward it was his duty to bring those views to his knowledge, or to the knowledge of his colleagues. He abstained from doing so.

*MR. KNOX said he was informed and believed that the local people had brought their views, which were also his, before the Whip of the Party.

of

MR. DILLON replied that no such information was brought before him. Acting, therefore, according to his best judgment, he suggested the names of the hon. Member for Derry City and himself, as chairman of the Party, because he thought the Bills were of extreme importance. The invariable practice was followed, any departure from which would involve the House in personal wrangles the most disagreeable character. He had no notice of any objection to these nominations until the morning of last Tuesday, when he received from the hon. Member a threatening notice warning him that he would institute a personal wrangle in the He did not think that that letter House unless he withdrew his name. removed the offence that had been com- He had not the slightest objection to mitted by this firm of solicitors. He withdraw his name, but not either at wished now to explain what occurred, the request of the hon. Member for so far as he was aware of it, in connec- Derry City nor at the invitation of the tion with the appointment of this Com- firm of solicitors who had charge mittee. It was agreed that the Bills of the opposition to the Bill. should be referred to a hybrid Committee In the interests of decency and order, and four of the Members were to be and for the sake of his Party, he nominated by the House. He could not extremely regretted that this discussion