to move the rescission of the Order. The any provisional Order should be open to proposal that petitious should be pre- challenge by any Member of the House, sented to the County Council was in- and he thought that rule ought to be tended to act as a safeguard to the followed in this case. locality. MR. EDWARD MORTON (Devon MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON port) asked who was (Dundee) I gather that provision is petition. to present the made for the automatic transfer of an MR. LLOYD-GEORGE said that, objection laid before the County Council, supposing there was a petition presented on general grounds against the Order, the Paper to that would it be competent for any hon. from the Council to Parliament. is an MR. LUTTRELL said, that under the Bill it was only possible to have a draft Order laid upon the Table of the House if there was an appeal through the County Council. He desired that the Order should be laid whether there was an appeal from the locality or not. *MR. BRODRICK said, the object was that any petition made by anybody should be presented to the House through the County Council, who were the best authority for giving the House information as to local opinion. MR. LUTTRELL thought the hon. Gentleman did not understand his point. The Bill provided that the draft Order should only come to the House through a County Council. He contended that it ought to come before the House independently of any Council so that the representatives of the people might be able to speak for their districts. MR. E. ROBERTSON did not think that the Amendment to which the hon. Gentleman had called his attention quite met his point. Member to raise a Debate? MR. J. SAMUEL (Stockton) asked with reference to the procedure in the case of non-county boards. DR. TANNER (Cork, Mid) asked whether it would be permissible for an hon. Member to call attention to the Order? THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir RICHARD WEBSTER, Isle of Wight) said that ample public notice had been provided in every case. The question was, "Ought there to be an obligation to lay every Order on the Table, or only when a petition was presented to the County Council?" He submitted that it was far more reasonable that the Order should only be laid on the Table when the local authorities had their attention called by a petition as to the Order. It must then come forward with the petition, showing what was the objection to it, and any remarks of the County Council or any other authority chose to make upon it. It was very much better that there should be public notice, in order that the people should take the initial step by ventilating the matter locally. MR. LUTTRELL thought it would be far better to have the draft Order laid on the Table of the House, be there petitions or not against it from the *MR. BRODRICK pointed out that the clause provided that if within 30 days after the publication of the notice any petition is presented to the Council against the proposal to make the Order, the draft Order should be laid locality. before each House of Parliament. In MR. J. W. LOGAN (Leicester, Harthe Amendment to which he had referred borough) asked why the Government the hon. Gentleman he proposed merely objected to lay the Order on the Table to modify that by providing that the of the House. petition should not have been withdrawn before the expiration of the 30 days. If the petition was not withdrawn the County Council would be bound to lay it before Parliament with any observations they might have to make upon it. *MR. BRODRICK said the object was to obtain the ventilating of the question locally by the proper authorities. MR. GEORGE LAMBERT (Devon, South Molton) pointed out that some County Councils only met four times a year, and there would be some practical inconvenience in the suggestion of the MR. LLOYD-GEORGE said, he did not see why an exception should be made in this case. The rule was that Government. Mr. Brodrick. [MR. J. W. LoWTHER in the Chair.] Motion made, and Question again proposed, out of the Consolidated Fund, of a sum not "That it is expedient to authorise the issue, MR. LUTTRELL moved an Amendment for the purpose of providing that no Order under Clause 1 should be made until a Resolution of each House of Parliament had been passed approving of the draft Order. He argued that if exceeding £300,000, for the purposes of the land was to be prescribed, that ought only to be done by Parliamentary Resolution, and that there would be no difficulty in getting such a Resolution passed when the demand made was a reasonable one. Telegraph Acts, and to authorise the Treasury annuities, payable out of moneys to be provided to borrow such sum by means of terminable by Parliament for the service of the Post Office, and, if those moneys are insufficient, out of the Consolidated Fund.-(Mr. Hanbury.) DR. TANNER asked for some explanation of the Resolution? MR. HANBURY said that the hon. Member would recollect that there was a It DR. TANNER thought that a fuller The Chairman left the Chair to make opportunity of considering the matter his report to the House. ought to be afforded to hon. Members. Committee report Progress; to sit Member take exception to this? If so, again upon Thursday. WAYS AND MEANS. : it is opposed business. MR. HANBURY said that there would be other opportunities of discussing the matter. DR. TANNER objected to further proceeding, and the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House. Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Thursday. Considered in Committee : (In the Committee.) Resolved, That, towards making good the Supply granted to Her Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March 1897, the sum of £27,442,207 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom. -(Mr. Hanbury.) PUBLIC OFFICES (SITE) BILL. MR. LLOYD-GEORGE objected. Resolution to be reported upon Thursday; Committee to sit again To-morrow. day. NAVAL RESERVE BILL. Committee deferred till Thursday. LOCAL GOVERNMENT (ALDERSHOT AND FARNBOROUGH) BILL. Second Reading deferred till Tuesday 28th April. BERRIEW SCHOOL BILL. Second Reading deferred till Thursday. MILITARY LANDS ACT (1892) which the introduction of that Bill was supported ran largely on the same lines as the arguments by which he would try to justify this Motion to the House. In introducing the Light Railway Bill, the President of the Board of Trade said : "If they could do anything to bring the producer and consumer more closely togetherif they could make more easy the distribution of produce-they would have done much to help both the producer and the consumer." Then referring to the complaints of high charges on the part of railway companies, he said : "He was not prepared to deny that there Second Reading deferred till Thurs- was some ground for those complaints, but assuming that agriculturists who now possess day. railway facilities might fairly complain of railway charges, what of those producers who had no railway communication whatever to avail themselves of? If the position of the one class was bad, the House would admit that the position of agriculturists who had no means of railway communication was infinitely worse." ESTATES TAIL ABOLITION BILL. morrow. LAW AGENTS (SCOTLAND) BILL. morrow. EVENING SITTING. To To ORDERS OF THE DAY. PIERS AND HARBOURS (WALES). MR. HERBERT LEWIS (Flint Boroughs) rose to move :— "That in the opinion of this House, in the interests of trade and communication by sea between places on the coast of Wales, and with a view to the protection and development of sea fisheries and the safety of the persons engaged in them, it is desirable that a Departmental Committee be appointed to inquire in what way and to what extent the existing provision of piers and harbours on the coast of Wales should be improved." That, unfortunately, was the position of a large part of the agricultural population who live on the coast of Wales. Evidence had been given before the Welsh Land Commission by the ex-chairman of the Cardiganshire County Council and others to the effect that in Wales, owing to the want of facilities, the sea had been very little utilised for the carriage of agricultural products. In some parts of the country- the peninsula of Lleyn for example he was assured that facilities of water carriage were far more important to the agricultural classes than light railways, much as they were needed in that part of the country. He therefore hoped he would carry with him the President of the Board of Trade and the House, in the assertion of the principle which underlay his Motion. But the Light Railway Bill not only referred to agriculture-it proposed to develop the fishing interest as well, and here again the principle of his Motion was in complete accordance with the policy of that Measure. Taking a rough survey of the coast of Wales, and indicating a few out He said he was glad that the Minister of the many important questions into who represented the Government on that which an Inquiry by a Departmental occasion was the President of the Board Committee would be of value, he would of Trade, because it was under his begin with the estuary of the Dee-the auspices that the House of Commons had part of the Welsh coast with which he given its sanction to the policy of the was most familiar. The River Dee, and Light Railway Bill. The arguments by all the ports along the estuary had suffered severely owing to the abstraction | about half a mile in a seaward direction of a large body of water for canal pur- from the harbour into which the river poses at Ellesmere. Instead of being Clwyd ran, the channel had been returned to the Dee it was diverted to dredged to a depth of nine feet at low another watershed, and from the time water mark. This dredging had been when this abstraction commenced this done by way of private enterprise for diversion had been probably the greatest the sake of raising gravel for making, contributory cause to the silting up of concrete, and a considerable part of the the Dee. The River Dee Commissioners, work of making it a harbour of refuge who were empowered during the last had therefore actually been accomplished. century to make works for the improve- For the last two or three years some ment of the navigation of the Dee and dredging had been done in a seaward the reclamation of land, chiefly confined direction, and for that privilege the themselves to reclaiming land, and under Board of Trade received £50 a year, but their régime the navigation of the Dee apparently they had not spent a penny became worse and worse. Within the of that money upon the improvement of last few years they had got rid of their the navigation between the channel of obligations, so far as navigation was con- the Dee and the Voryd Harbour. What cerned, and had transferred them to the was urgently required was the continuaRiver Dee Conservancy Board. That tion of the dredging to the sea by body was doing its best, with the cutting through the bar of the estuary extremely limited means at its disposal, which was dry at low water on ordinary but those means were entirely inadequate. tides, thus enabling vessels of 10 to 15 The channel had become tortuous, and feet draught of water to get in at the the accumulation of sand-banks at one earliest stage of the tides, and steamers point of its course was so serious as to of light draught of water to get in and threaten at times the closure of the out at all times. It was most important greater part of the Dee to navigation. that something should be done, and The change which had taken place might done quickly for the development of the be judged from the fact that Parkgate natural advantages of this harbour. was in former times the port for Ireland, From 150 to 200 trading vessels, varyand that men-of-war used to lie at ing from 100 to 1,000 tons burden, anchor under Flint Castle afloat even visited the harbour annually, and were when the tide was out. was often exposed to much danger, and only by private effort and at occasionally sustained serious damage. great expense, that the owners of A large number of vessels loaded limethe wharves along the Dee at Flint, stone at the unprotected Llandulas Bagillt, Greenfield, Mostyn and the stages, and when a storm suddenly came Point of Air could keep the gutters on with the wind blowing from the deep enough to enable vessels to north or north-west, as they had no approach. The possibility of restoring harbour of refuge nearer than Wild to the Dee the scouring power of which Roads, vessels were lost every year it had been wrongfully deprived had because they were unable to run into often been discussed, and it was a ques- Voryd Harbour. The local fishermen tion which demanded and deserved full at Voryd had made several attempts to inquiry. If the navigation could only carry on their occupation outside the be relied upon, the works which now bar but they had found it too dangeline the banks of the Dee Estuary would rous, as there was not enough water on be largely increased. Facilities of rail- the bar to enable them to run into way communication and water carriage harbour when they were caught in would do more to improve the estuary rough weather outside. Many a shipthan any other agency could effect. wreck had been caused on the Rhyl Coming to the open sea, the need of a banks through the inability of these and harbour of refuge somewhere between other vessels under stress of weather to Holyhead and the Wild Roads had been reach Wild Roads, or to cross the bar felt for many years, and the existing of the Clwyd into the harbour at harbour at Voryd near Rhyl possessed Voryd. The expense of making Rhyl many natural advantages for the forma- into a useful harbour of refuge for tion of a harbour of refuge. For vessels drawing up to 15 feet of water It lack of proper A and for small steamers, fishing boats and with fish, and yet the Anglesey people, yachts, would be comparatively small largely owing to and part of the work would be actually facilities, were unable to participate in the fishing industry. He feared that remunerative in itself. Those who now excessive railway rates largely contricarried on dredging work paid the owner buted to that condition of things. Given of the soil £100 a year, and the Board reasonable rates, and with a little of Trade £50 a year, for the privilege encouragement, a profitable fishing inof dredging for gravel. But the pro- dustry could be established in Anglesey. vision of a harbour of refuge at Rhyl There were also a number of places on was something more than a local ques- the western coast of Wales where, at tion, and the town could not be expected comparatively small expense, the fishing to bear an expense which would be for industry could be developed and the the benefit of the coast between Holy- carriage of goods greatly cheapenedhead and the Mersey. In any event such places, for example, as Abersoch, there was a case for full inquiry on the Trevor, Porthysgadan and Porthgolmon part of the Board of Trade, in the on the Lleyn Peninsula, where nature interests of the safety of life and ship- had already done the greater part of the ping property on the coast of North work. Such an industry would vivify Wales. Such a harbour as the one he the whole district, and would make the had indicated would prevent the loss of light railway which they were thinking vessels every year; it would develop the of making a profitable undertaking. fishing industry, it would cheapen the Pwllheli had a natural harbour, which transit of goods from Liverpool to Rhyl might also be greatly improved. and to the places of which Rhyl formed breakwater at Borth, near Portmadoc, the centre, and incidentally it would within the harbour, with gas buoys and give a great impetus to the tourist traffic leading lights during the season, would between Lancashire and places on the be a great stimulus to the fishing incoast of North Wales. That coast was dustry. Aberdovey was one of the best one of great natural beauty; and it natural harbours on the coast. It could, would be easily accessible from the and did, accoinmodate vessels carrying crowded and populous centres of Lanca- nearly 2,000 tons always afloat. A few shire and the Midlands if they only had years ago there was a line of steamers such facilities for landing passengers as running between Aberdovey and Waterwould encourage shipping companies to ford, but it was discontinued, largely run lines of steamers along the coast. because they could not get in and out at He could speak from personal experience low water. The inner harbour offered of the enormous advantage which a capital facilities and accommodation, and landing place with a daily service of if the bar was only dredged, the harbour steamers conferred, not merely upon the would be one of the finest on the coast. immediate vicinity of the landing place, There, with a little money judiciously but also upon the whole of the surround- spent, a break water might be constructed ing country for many miles. A steamer inside the harbour for the protection of seemed to bring life into the dullest place. fishing boats. The estuary was two The case of Holyhead Harbour and the miles broad at high water, and ran great improvement which might be inland for several miles, consequently it effected there by the removal of the was too rough in stormy weather, and Platter Rocks was not one which could the fishing boats adapted for the place, properly be dealt with under this from 5 to 15 tons burthen, were freMotion. The discussion upon that sub- quently destroyed. If a breakwater ject would come more properly under were erected the fishing industry could the Board of Trade Vote. But with be considerably developed. The imporregard to Holyhead, he might remark, tance of the harbour was shown by the in passing, that notwithstanding the fact that the Cambrian Railway Comlarge sums spent upon the harbour, the pany had spent £10,000 upon it, but of place had hardly any local shipping course they could not be expected to trade of its own. There was no place undertake the development of the fishing where a tourist steamer could land pas- industry. The facilities for the fishing sengers. The coast of Anglesey teemed industry on the coast of Cardiganshire Mr. Herbert Lewis. |