That alteration, in his contract had terminated and there was carried out." no opportunity for reopening the ques- view, involved a departure from the tions raised. For some of those com- principle which the House had laid down plaints no doubt there had been little or in the Resolution of 1891. In his no foundation, and no suggestion had opinion that alteration had been made been made that there was a want of in view of certain matters connected with courtesy or of attention on the part of the shipbuilding operations upon the any of the Departments. He had at-Thames. To his mind, this question of tempted to lay before the House the the words in Government contracts had nature of the complaints that had been absolutely nothing whatever to do with made. He by no means endorsed those the question of shipbuilding on the complaints, but he had referred to their Thames. As far as firms interested in existence as a ground for his suggestion shipbuilding on the Thames were con that a Committee ought to be appointed. cerned, they already paid the current The appointment of such a Committee rate in the district, and therefore no would give general satisfaction, and Resolution was necessary to force them would enable it to be ascertained whe- to. pay it. He wanted to discuss this ther any remedies could be found for the simply from the point of view of the fairgrievances which had been put forward wages Resolution of 1891, and the inif they existed at all, because it was terpretation that ought to be put upon quite possible that in many cases the it. The right hon. Gentleman, in his complaints were unfounded. A ques- letter explaining the action he had taken, tion had arisen as to whether there had said that while he adhered to the letter not been an evasion of the spirit of the of the Resolution, the words in AdmiResolution. There was a great want of ralty contracts were an amplification of uniformity in the way the Resolution the Resolution of 1891. It was true was administered in the different Depart- that they were additional words, but he ments, and he believed that the appoint-denied that they were in any sense an ment of the Committee would bring the amplification. The words used were different Departments together, and, by that the wages paid should be those drawing attention to the Resolution, generally accepted as current in each secure greater uniformity in its adminis- trade for competent workmen. tration, and to have an authoritative in- certain sense, he admitted, that form of terpretation as to its meaning. The words did obey the Resolution; but right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of they must be read in the light of the the Admiralty had lately made an altera- Debate that took place, and must be tion in the way in which contracts con- looked at from a common-sense point of cerning his Department should in future view. The object of the House was cerbe issued to persons tendering. The tainly not that the Government of the Resolution, in effect, pointed out that it day should in any sense fix the rate of was the duty of the Government in all wages, but that they ought to recognise Government contracts to make every existing rates of wages. To his mind, effort to secure the payment of such if all Government Departments put upon wages as were generally accepted and the Resolution the interpretation put on current in the district where the work it by the Admiralty, the Resolution was to be carried out. The right hon. would practically be a dead letter altoGentleman the First Lord of the Admi-gether. There was no general current ralty, had, in the exercise of his discre- rate of wages throughout any trade in tion, omitted from the terms of the the country, but there was a district Admiralty contracts the words "current rate. He would venture to read a in the district where the work is to be passage from the speech he made in In a "No one proposes or desires that the Government should fix the rate of wages. All that is asked is, that the Government should accept as fair wages those rates of wages which prevail in any particular trade-the rate that has been fixed by negotiation between employers and workmen. There is no mystery about this matter. A standard rate of wages, for the time being, prevails in every large trade, and it is perfectly well known. They are recognised on the one side as fair by the 1891 in moving the Resolution upon dustrial conflict this proposal, if carried this point. He said then :out, would lead to. He believed that the other Departments of the State had for some time past been interpreting the Resolution properly, but if the Admiralty took the step they were contemplating, he was afraid the other Departments would follow their lead. He wished now to make a suggestion or two as to the way in which he believed the Resolution might be more properly and fully carried out. There had lately been set up a Department in which everyone had considerable confidence, he meant the Labour Department. He believed representatives of the men, and on the other paid without demur by all good employers." He then went on to say :— "It is trade prices, not trade-union prices, of which I have been speaking prices it had been the custom of other Departindeed accepted as fair by trade unionists, ments to consult the Labour Department as for the moment all they can get, though not necessarily all they could desire." on this question of fair wages, and it did seem to him that such use should be It was perfectly obvious from that and made of it. He would give that Departfrom the rest of the speech, as well as the ment very considerable authority in other speeches made in the Debate, that dealing with complaints on this subject. what was in the speakers' minds was not Their officials had an expert knowledge a general current rate, but the different of the matter which the officials of no district rates applicable in different other Department possessed, and he places, and it was certainly evident to would suggest the appointment from him that the only way in which the that Department of Clerks of the Works, Resolution could be properly interpreted Superintendents, or Inspectors, who was by having regard to the fact that should not only be responsible for the current rate of wages in one district materials used in contracts, but also for might be higher than in another. In seeing that there were proper pay-sheets fact, he would point out that the Gov- and proper wages paid. He thought, ernment themselves had adopted that also, that when the rate of wages had idea by paying their labourers at one been decided and a proper agreement dockyard higher than those at another. come to, lists of wages ought to be exHe believed that if the form of words hibited in the workshops in which work used by the Admiralty were generally was being done. There were also many adopted, the Resolution would be practi- minor matters of administration with cally a dead letter, and the tendency of which a Committee might deal with Government contracts would be to break great advantage. He thanked the House down the rate of wages. It would en- for allowing him to make this rather courage contractors to pay a lower rate long statement, and he apologised for than the custom of the trade would its length. There was only one other allow them to pay in other than Govern- thing he wished to say in conclusion. ment contracts. It was, he contended, In moving this Resolution he did not as much to the interest of good em- wish it to be thought that the principle ployers as to the interest of the workmen of the Fair Wages Resolution was at that the Government should not throw present in question. He thought he their weight into the scale in favour of could give a very good precedent for the lower wages. He did not know that proposal he made, and that was, that the House appreciated the amount of in- the other day a Committee was appointed Mr. Sydney Buxton. with the Resolution of the House of those firms should be struck off. A Commons, and powerful representations resolution was passed at the Executive have been made that those firms should Federation of Engineering and Shipbuilding Trades to the effect that they be struck off the list of Government conshould be instructed to take whatever tractors. This demand has been made steps might be deemed advisable to inin connection with the Resolution of fluence the Government to strike those 1891. Hon. Gentlemen opposite have firms off the list of the Admiralty, or had those representations made to them compel them to conform to the Resoluas far back as 1894; we have had them tion of the House of Commons. Messrs. made to us; and the movement does not Penn, Messrs. Humphrey, and Messrs. come from those who are employed by Maudslay were mentioned as firms who those firms, but from outside influences. paid below the standard rate. What is [Cheers.] A resolution passed at the the district standard ? Who sets it? Trade Union Congress at Cardiff con- [Cheers.] The Admiralty deny that demns the Government for persistently those firms are below the district stanrefusing to carry out the fair wages dard, because they establish a standard Resolution passed by the House of for themselves. When you have a great Commons in February 1891, and es- trade how many firms are there who are pecially condemns their action in main- engaged in the same work who are taining on their list of contractors and paying different wages? If all the great in extensively employing certain notorious firms employ labour on one particular "blackleg" firms in the London district form of battleship, or one particular kind whose trade characters are perfectly well of engines and boilers, and pay a fair known to the Government; and they wage which their own employés are satisask to have those firms either struck off fied with-who lays down the standard the list of Admiralty contractors or rate which is to be the rate? [Cheers.] compelled to pay the wages of the I asked the deputation which I received, London district. Those are some of the "Who lays down the rate?" A memdifficulties with which we are confronted, ber of the deputation said that he repreand I place those considerations before sented the trade union and candidly the House. What is the penalty by said "The trade union." He was thus which we are to enforce compliance ? contradicting the hon. Gentleman who There is one of the weaknesses which I said that these wages were fixed between hope the Committee will inquire into and the employers and the employed, and it one of the difficulties of the Resolution. is the outside influences which are enIt is said that we are to penalise the deavouring to act in the way I have firms; but some of the firms are render- described. [Cheers.] I entirely acknowing the greatest public service we can ledge the extreme difficulty of working demand, and if we struck them off the this Resolution, and the Government list our action would cause loss to the cordially accept the Committee to inquire productive power of London; and if this into the matter. We should place all Resolution was carried out the boiler the difficulties of the case before them, and engineering trades would lose to as and I hope that some means may be great an extent as the shipbuilding found to meet and to remedy some of the trade. [Cheers.] I submit that those difficulties. We will approach the inare considerations which ought to be quiry in a spirit which desires to carry taken into account. When I deleted out that which we believe to be the the words "current in the district" from unanimous feeling of the House; but, our forms of contract I had in my at the same time, I wished to interpose mind not to be a party to the maintaining in the Debate in order that it should be of words which might be quoted in realised that it is not a simple matter, this controversy which was going on and that it is not a question of easy from striking off those great firms from definition. While the House should be our Admiralty list. There was a depu- favourable to the spirit in which the tation received by the Civil Lord of the original Resolution is conceived and to Admiralty who again strongly urged that see it carried out, I trust it will not in consequence of failure to meet the aggravate those difficulties and not Resolution of the House of Commons attempt to remove them by any further First Lord of the Admiralty. stringency of construction. I hold the so. To insist that inquiries of this kind opinion that the precise laying down of should be made at once might result in definitions will be absolutely impossible. paralysing for a time the activity of a ["Hear, hear ''] The hon. Member Department in connection with more for the Wansbeck Division of Northum- serious matters. It is often difficult to berland quoted the words "What is a find time to devote to the consideration competent workman ?” I believe the of great questions. Many suggestions trade unions and other bodies differ very have been made with a view to expedite much in their definition of "competent the settlement of these complaints. One workman." Then there is the great suggestion is that the services of the question of area, of district; and ac- Labour Department should be called in, cording as we draw the district there and another that inspectors should be you will find whether wages are paid as employed. On those proposals I will current in the district or not. To not venture to pronounce off-hand. The reconstruct the areas for trade union Government are prepared to accept this purposes would be as difficult as the Resolution in the spirit in which it is redistribution of political power in the moved, but I trust there will be no representation of this House. Every attempt in the Committee to construct a difference of area would certainly make mass of definitions, no attempt to tie a variation in the rate which, according our hands and to restrict the contractual to the views of some persons, ought to freedom which the Admiralty and other be paid. It was said that the Resolution Departments must have, and that care was vague. It was vague because the will be taken not to imperil any indussubject matter with which it deals must tries from a desire to maintain what are leave it vague. There is only one way called standard wages, which sometimes in which this Resolution, in my judg- remain standard wages without benefit ment, can be made fairly to work to the workmen themselves. By striving namely, the existence of a disposition on after an impossible ideal we might both sides to work it fairly according to deprive thousands of working men of its general spirit. [Cheers.] Many the employment which they would complaints do not come from the parties otherwise have. I will conclude by mainly interested-namely, the people saying that I hope that the outcome of enjoying the wages, but from other this Resolution will be satisfactory to bodies who interpose; and I have had its promoters, whilst leaving unimpaired representations from pattern-makers in the efficiency of our great Administrative Scotland complaining of the wages given Departments. ["Hear, hear ''] to pattern-makers in London. There On the return of Mr. SPEAKER after the usual interval, are bodies all over the country who strive to establish themselves as arbiters in these matters. Four-fifths of the complaints that have reached the Ad- *MR. H. BROADHURST (Leicester) miralty have come from trade organisa- said, he regretted that the First Lord of tions. In only one case has the com- the Admiralty did not conclude his plaint come from workmen actually speech after the first ten minutes, beemployed, and in one case it was made cause in the latter part of his remarks by a dismissed workman. Attention he made a new departure and gave a has been drawn to the fact that there new importance to the subject before the has been delay in dealing with some of House. The right hon. Gentleman did these complaints. At the Admiralty not confine himself to the Motion, but one cause of the delay has been the went on to discuss the principle of the desire of some of us who are officially right of particular firms to establish a responsible to inquire into these cases certain rate of wage. He stated that ourselves. ["Hear, hear!"] When it was through insistence upon a certain the head of a Department is to give close rate of wages that the work of shipattention to an allegation that contrac- building was driven from the Thames. tors pay insufficient wages to some of their workmen, perhaps only three or four of them, he must, of course, select some opportune moment in which to do VOL. XXXIX. [FOURTH SERIES.] He had heard similar statements for the last 25 years, and the reply to them was that if coal and iron in the raw condition were as accessible to the Thames as they D |