had, however, been thoroughly carried exceptional. He doubted whether it out, and the current rate of wages had would be wise to extend considerably the been stipulated for in the contract. A limits of investment and to enlarge their comparison had been made as to the list of securities, for the element of risk work done by the Post Office and that ought to be eliminated as far as possible. done by other agencies with regard to Nor did he think that the Post Office annuities and insurance. If the work would do well to advertise more extenwas not carried on upon such a large sively, and auxiliary postmen were cerscale by the Post Office as they might tainly not, in his opinion, the class of wish, it should be remembered that there men from whom agents ought to be were difficulties which arose in connec- selected for pushing the business. With tion with a public department which regard to the question of the purchase of did not arise elsewhere. Last year was sites, he agreed that it was wasteful one of the most successful in this depart- expenditure to buy sites and not to make ment of Post Office work. During the use of them; but with reference to the year ended December 31, 1893, the case at Weston-super-Mare, to which amount of annuities was £37,000; attention had been called, he understood insurance, £44,000; deferred annuities, that the Treasury had objected to the £3,000; and there was a considerable cost of erecting the proposed post office, increase on those figures in 1894 and holding that the estimate for the building 1895. The amount of deferred annuities was higher than it ought to be. In was remarkably small, but that remark answer to the hon. Member for Carnardid not apply to the Post Office only. von, he would undertake that the railway That was the case with regard to all company concerned would be communisocieties transacting similar business cated with in order that an arrangement throughout the country; and there might be made, if that should be possible, seemed to be everywhere so strong a by which the mails should arrive at feeling against the system of deferred Pwllheli earlier in the morning than now annuities that it was referred to by the and leave later in the evening. With Royal Commission on the Aged Poor. regard to the complaint as to the delay It was stated by the Commissioners in the delivery of letters addressed to that the witnesses generally agreed towns described in Welsh, he would inin thinking that the system of deferred quire whether it was possible to carry annuities at present was unpopular, out the suggestion that had been made not only with the working classes, that at central points, such as Oswestry, but with every section of the community. a register should be kept of the Welsh They drew attention to the limited names of towns. He could not, however, success of the annuity departments of undertake to say that certain means friendly societies and of the Post Office could be found to prevent delay in the in spite of the efforts of the latter case of letters addressed to towns with department to induce people to provide names running to 28 syllables. [Laughter.] for their old age, and they said that As a matter of fact the complaints of whilst there were many opportunities for delay received at the Post Office had the purchase of deferred annuities they been very few. Cases that were brought were almost totally neglected. Last year to the notice of the postal authorities at the Post Office the annual premiums would be examined at once. The Memwere largely reduced, and the endowment ber for Glasgow had raised a formidable principle, which was about the most question regarding the telephones and popular form of assurance, was greatly the code. He gave the hon. Member a extended. The hon. Member for Leices- very full reply to a question on the Code ter suggested that a Commissioner should last Session, and he had nothing to add be sent to New Zealand; but surely to what he then said. With regard to there were places nearer than New telephones, the answer he gave two or Zealand where the system of Govern- three weeks ago was that in all cases ment insurance was as successful as the where it was proved to the satisfaction— hon. Member alleged it was there. If he supposed of the Postmaster Generalthere were no such places the small that any particular district was not being success of the system of Post Office in- properly and adequately served by the surance in this country ceased to be National Telephone Company, the Post Mr. Hanbury. Office would exercise its undoubted right | letter carriers and other descriptions of of working a rival system. What un- work were given over to old soldiers and doubtedly would happen would be that sailors, the result followed that the Post if the National Telephone Company Office was not able to get as good a failed to give adequate service in any supply of telegraph messengers as before, district and he took it that an inade- because the door to promotion was closed quate service would be a too costly to them. He thought his hon. Friend service then the Postmaster General would agree with him that those already would exercise his right to work side by servants of the Department should have side with the National Telephone Com- the first claim. As to the question pany. But the hon. Member raised the raised by the hon. Member for Stafford further question whether the local with regard to the smaller pay of Post authorities the municipal Corporation Office officials in Stafford as compared of Glasgow, for instance-should have with larger towns like Walsall and the power to erect telephones within Wolverhampton, he thought, in the first their own area on their own account. place, that that was a question which He thought it would be a very bad ought to be left for Lord Tweedmouth's arrangement to have so many possible Committee to consider, and, therefore, systems working side by side. The hon. that it would be wrong for him to go Member must recollect that what they all into it now. The hon. Gentleman did aimed at was that ultimately the whole not seem to be aware of the principle on service, both for the local areas and the which the scale of wages was based. The great trunk lines, should fall into the principle was that the wages should bear hands of the Government. Nearly the some proportion to the cost of living in whole of the hon. Member's speech was the different towns, and he imagined intended to convey to the House of that the cost of living in Stafford would Commons an idea of the very cheap and be cheaper than in Walsall or Wolverefficient way in which the telephones hampton. If the hon. Member could would be worked if the municipal corporations were allowed to do it. It was quite possible that that might be the case, but as the telephones would in show that the cost of living in Stafford was no less, and that the postmen there were receiving less wages than postmen in the other towns to which he had the course of a very few years fall referred, that was a grievance which the into the hands of the Government, hon. Member might lay before Lord it would not be advisable, unless Tweedmouth's Committee. That also, under exceptional circumstances, to to some extent, answered the question agree to a system under which the raised by the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy municipal corporations would work them. with regard to the inadequate representaHe would go further and say that, with tion of the Post Office in the House of the exception of Glasgow, he did not Commons. The hon. Member, in the think that there was any strong opinion first place, had partly exaggerated the whatever in the direction of municipal amount of work which fell on the Secrecorporations taking over the telephone tary to the Treasury in connection with systems in their areas. He passed to his own Department; and, in the second the point raised by the hon. Member for place, in his opinion, there were some Essex. That was a question in which practical advantages to be gained by his hon. Friend and he walked side by throwing the work of the Post Office in side. He felt very strongly that the the House of Commons on to the Treasystem of employing old soldiers and sury. It was very important that the sailors, not only in the Post Office but Treasury should be brought as closely as in other Departments, was one that possible into connection with the great ought to be adopted as largely as possible. spending Departments. It was from his At the same time the claims of those connection with the Post Office that he already in the Departments ought to be was able to obtain a vast amount of inborne in mind. Under the arrangement formation which it would be quite imbrought about by his right hon. Friend possible for him to get in any other way. the Member for North-East Manchester Therefore, he could only repeat what he when he was Postmaster General five or had said earlier in the evening, that six years ago, by which the work of however inadequately he might carry out the work, there were certainly some good defended the present state of affairs it and sound reasons for maintaining the was felt that he was merely holding a present state of things. He had ex- brief for the authorities at St. Martin'splained that this was not the first case le-Grand and must have known that the of the Postmaster General being in the present state of affairs was intolerable. House of Lords. It was the third case The right hon. Gentleman probably knew since 1866. He did not think that, that this was the last time he or his assuming that the Secretary to the Trea- successor would represent the Postmaster sury could bear the work, any real public General in that House, as because of the convenience would accrue from an altera- enormous importance of the Post Office tion; while, on the contrary, he believed and the extent of its revenue, it would that considerable advantage ought to become absolutely necessary that the accrue to the public from the connection | head of such a Department should come of the Treasury with a great spending into touch with the House of Commons. Department. In approaching the greatest of all postal *SIR ALBERT ROLLIT said, that questions-that of a scheme of Imperial after the statement of the right hon. penny postage he did not desire to Gentleman he would withdraw his trouble the House with all the arguAmendment. As was the case in ments he had adduced in favour of the Glasgow, he assumed that where a town great Measure on previous occasions. had been asked by the Telephone Com-Two years ago the House of Commons pany to be allowed to exercise the agreed that a system of penny postage powers of the Postmaster General under should be established throughout the the Act of 1892, on the condition that the very best service would be afforded, this claim would be taken into consideration by the Postmaster General if there should be a refusal or neglect to allow such facilities, before coming to a decision in favour of the municipality. Empire on two conditions, which were, first, that the finances of the country should permit of it, and second, that the assent of the Colonies should be given to such a Measure. Only the other day a most important, intelligent and representative body, the Associated Chambers of Commerce, passed the following Resolu On the return of the CHAIRMAN after tion:the usual interval. 66 That in the opinion of this Association, no *MR. HENNIKER HEATON said, serious attempt has ever been made by the he joined with those who expressed rities to carry out the wishes of the Imperial British Postmaster General or the postal authodissatisfaction at the present representa- Parliament, or of the Chambers of Commerce, tion of the Post Office in the House of repeatedly expressed for the establishment of Commons. With all respect to the Secretary of the Treasury, there was nothing more unconstitutional or objectionable than that the Post Office should be represented by an official of the Treasury. He questioned whether the right hon. Gentleman had ever been inside the General Post Office, and it was extraordinary that this great with to carry out this reform." Department employing 130,000 men, Imperial penny postage; that the so-called foundation in fact: that the letters published opposition of the Australian people has no from the Prime Minister of Victoria, the Prime Minister of New Zealand, and the Prime Minister of Tasmania, expressly assent to the establishment of an Imperial penny post for England to the Colonies that in these circumstances Her Majesty's Government be again strongly urged to take the necessary steps forth having 22,000 branch offices, and a He ventured to say, in the words of one revenue of £13,000,000 a year, should of the leading newspapers, that no more have no direct representation in the severe condemnation was ever passed on House of Commons. The Leader of the Post Office than this Resolution, the House recently spoke of the dis- which told the Government that notadvantages of not having the presence withstanding the Vote of the House of there of the Postmaster General. In the Commons, no attempt had ever been House of Lords the Postmaster General made by the Post Office to facilitate the was seldom asked a question or ex- carrying of this great Measure. Νο pected to speak in his official capacity. more popular Measure could be passed When the Secretary to the Treasury by the House of Commons than that Mr. Hanbury. which would establish Imperial penny halfpenny, he said, "We shall at once postage, and no serious objections could place ourselves in communication with. be urged against it. The great postal the colonies, and get their assent to authorities of this country no longer con- carry out their wishes forthwith." Again, tended that it was a question of cost. when a similar Resolution was moved, He had, indeed, shown by their own the then Chancellor of the Exchequer in figures that the cost of establishing the late Government said, "If we get Imperial penny postage would not exceed the assent of the colonies we shall do the cost of a torpedo boat or of a picture it." Yet, despite these explicit statefor the National Gallery. He had, on ments, the Post Office had made no previous occasions, proved that the cost move whatever; they had simply ignored of an ocean penny postage to all parts of the wishes of the House of Commons, the Empire would not exceed £20,000 a and had failed to place themselves in year. He had shown how to-day they communication with the colonies. One had Imperial halfpenny postage. Whether from there to Fleet Street, or from there to New Zealand, all printed matter weighing under two ounces could go for a halfpenny, whereas the smallest envelope could not go to New Zealand or other Colonies under twopence halfpenny. Considering that between 200,000 and 300,000 left these shores on the subject." every year, many never to return, he of the Prime Ministers for Queensland had refused to assent to the Motion for an Imperial penny postage for the reason "that we decline to do it upon the recommendachannel of conveying such a request is from tion of the Member for Canterbury. The true the Government of England, and we have not heard from the Postmaster General of England again repeated that it would be the He quoted the exact words used by this highest policy to encourage these poor gentleman to show that it was not true emigrants to correspond with the old to say the Australian colonies objected folks at home. He had repeatedly to the Resolution. He thought, in view instanced examples of affection now of these circumstances, the time had existing between the old folks and their come when a Resolution should be sons and daughters in Australia, Africa, adopted for placing the management of and everywhere. He pointed out that postal affairs on an entirely different to-day the Australian people sent to this basis. In France, whenever any great country more than £1,000 a day, namely reform in postal matters was broached, £412,000 a year, through the Post Office, the Postmaster General regarded himself in the shape of small money orders. He as the servant of the Government and had given numerous illustrations of the of the country, and conferred with a value of the remittances, and the kind of Consultative Committee on the advismessages received by fathers and ability of carrying out the suggested mothers from their children abroad, reform. In this country, however, when urging these as a plea for an ocean any improvement was hinted at, a close, penny postage system. Notwithstand- compact body of officials sat, and then ing the Vote of the House of formulated some specious answer which Commons and the strong expressions of was to be given to the demand by the opinion in favour of such a scheme, not Postmaster General or his representative one single step had been taken by the in the House of Commons. With regard Post Office towards carrying out the to Imperial penny postage, the position wishes of the House of Commons. The was this: The public opinion and the Committee, he thought, would agree Press of England demanded it, the with him when he said that the postal Government and individual Members of officials were no longer their masters, but the Government were strongly in favour their servants; and yet the House of of it; but in face of all this a few Commons had been snubbed in this officials at St. Martin's-le-Grand were matter. When the late Chancellor of the able to snap their fingers at the whole Exchequer in the Conservative Govern- House of Commons and the Government. ment, now the First Lord of the Admi- He desired once more emphatically to ralty, had to deal with the Resolution in say if they wished the whole of the fifty favour of reducing the rates of postage colonies of the Empire to come to them from sixpence to fivepence and twopence- together and say, "We ask for Imperial since 1 assumin sury co conven tion; that accru of th Dep 4* aft Ge ot the first case ing in t tera into touch with the House of CommoL- postage he did not desire to the House with all the arguhad adduced in favour of the sure on previous occasions. go the House of Commons system of penny postage tablished throughout the conditions, which were, ances of the country and second, that the s should be given to ly the other day a igent and represenated Chambers of following Resolu his Association, no been made by the r the postal authoAs of the Imperial ers of Commerce, establishment of hat the so-called n people has no letters published Victoria, the Prime and the Prime essly assent to the ial penny post for aat in these circumvernment be again ecessary steps forth n. the words of one pers, that no more vas ever passed on . this Resolution, ernment that notote of the House of npt had ever been ffice to facilitate the (reat Measure. No ire could be passed Commons than that |