that many Members on his side of the House would use every effort, as he should, to defeat the Bill, and to prevent its becoming law.

elementary education. There was no superior to that to be obtained in a large subject in which the artisans of our towns proportion of Voluntary Schools. Instead were more deeply interested than in this of being taught to repeat by rote formulas question of the elementary education of and phrases which they did not undertheir children. The secret of the success stand, in the Board Schools children of the Act of 1870 was its acceptance of listened to the beautiful words of the the principle of democratic election for Bible, which, simple and direct and intelSchool Boards; that principle had led to ligible went straight to their minds and the choice on the great boards of educa- hearts, and there was also the inestimtional experts and enthusiasts who had able advantage that children thus worked out the splendid development of learned the truths which were common to education in our great towns; he main- all, and while sitting side by side, instead tained that that principle ought to be of being taught to distrust and despise adhered to. The Bill contained immense and hate each other's special doctrines. concessions to the managers of Voluntary One Bishop of the Church of England schools. The schools were to receive the had spoken boldly out on this point, grant assigned to them by the education and at least protested against this authority, and there was to be no obliga- declaration of war against the School tion whatever on the managers to find Boards, and the making of little children subscriptions.to balance the contribution the centre of bitter sectarian controfrom the State. There would be no versy in the Schools. He would only shred of real popular control over the say, in conclusion, that he considered this administration of the schools in the Bill to be an absolute repeal in effect of choice of teachers, and the arrangement the Act of 1870, and he had no doubt of the curriculum. By handing over the grant in a lump sum to a federation of schools they were creating irresponsible clerical boaods which would spring up like mushrooms all over the country and SIR J. GORST said, he had to thank be left a perfect free hand. This was the House for the kindness with which to organise in the wrong way. The right they had received his statement and the thing to do would have been to provide general reception they had given to the for the election of School Boards having Bill, and he should not have troubled supervision over large areas on the model them with any further remarks had not of School Boards in large towns, one cr two hon. Members asked him capable of bringing the benefits of a questions. With regard to the position higher education to the humblest of of the higher grade Board Schools, they villages at the minimum of cost. He would be treated in the most delicate believed in a real continuity of adminis- manner possible. There were no provitration of secondary as well as elemen- sions in the Bill by which they would be tary education. But this Bill was pro- transferred arbitrarily to the education ceeding in a a diametrically opposite authority, and it was hoped that their direction to the natural development. case would be a matter for arrangement The proper plan would be to start with between the new education authority the great School Boards directly elected and the School Boards. The provision for educational purposes at the bottom, in the Bill was that, upon the application and then add at the top the experts of either the education authority or the who could help most as regards School Board, the Education Departsecondary education. But this Bill ment might make all the necessary orders proposed to deprive the great School and arrangements for the higher grade Boards of their higher grade elementary schools. With regard to the Cowperschools which would be strongly resisted. Temple Clause, that was not referred to The Cowper-Temple Clause was un- or touched upon in any way whatever. doubtedly to be repealed in substance He was sorry that when he held out the and the unhappy friction of sectarian olive branch to hon. Members opposite, animosities to be let loose on the schools. it should be received by them as a He believed that the religious education dagger. The clause in the Bill referring given in Board Schools was infinitely to religious instruction only gave parents

a right to that which was done now in submit schemes to the Charity Commishundreds of schools. A certain Bishop sioners. There was a provision in the of the Church of England was in his Bill conferring such a power, and the younger days a parish clergyman in usual course, which was, perhaps, someWiltshire. In his parish there was only what clumsy, would be followed. It was a Church School, while the majority of true that in the Bill no attempt was the parishioners were Baptists. Find- made to reform the procedure of the ing it extremely inconvenient to teach Charity Commission; but if the House the Church Catechism to Baptist chil- should see fit to supply that defect in dren, he arranged that the schoolmistress Committee, he did not think the Governshould give a simple Bible lesson on four ment would offer any strong objecdays in the week to all the children in He thought he had now answered the school, and that on the fifth all the questions put to him, and he day a similar Bible lesson should be would ask the House to allow him to given to the Baptist children, while bring in the Bill.

tion.

SIR J. GORST: To-morrow.

Bill ordered to be brought in by Sir John Gorst, Mr Balfour, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Lord George Hamilton; presented, and read 1o; to be read 20 upon Monday, 13th April.— [Bill 172.]

TEACHERS' REGISTRATION BILL.

he himself took the Church children *SIR C. DILKE: When will the Bill into another room and taught them be circulated? the Catechism. That was the kind of arrangement contemplated in this Bill. With regard to what was said by his right hon. Friend the Member for Dartford, the county education authority was entitled to receive, in respect to the ordinary Parliamentary Grant, a grant for the number of the children in the county at the present rate, provided that, in cases in which the present rate was below the average, the Education Department was to have the power of gradually levelling up the county contribution to the average. In answer to his hon. Friend the Member for West Ham, who had asked what was the position of School Boards with regard to the present conduct of their business, he had to say primary and secondary education? that School Boards which carried on their work efficiently would not be interBill ordered to be brought in by Sir fered with at all by this Bill. He would John Gorst, Mr. Balfour, Mr. Chancelalso point out that there was a provision lor of the Exchequer, and Lord George in the Bill to the effect that any persons Hamilton; presented and read 1o; to be or body who felt themselves aggrieved by read 2o upon Monday, 13th April.the action of the education authority, [Bill 173.]

SIR J. GORST said, he hoped the House would allow him to bring in this other Bill as well. He did not think it required any explanation, as it was based on the plan recommended by the Royal Commission on Secondary Education.

MR. GRAY: Will it affect both

SIR J. GORST: Yes.

Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, in pursuance of the Order of the House of the 30th March, adjourned the House with

might appeal to the Education Depart-
ment. Then the hon. Member for West
Ham asked about the Science and Art
Grant. It was intended to hand over
to the education authority that part of
the Grant devoted to the maintenance of
schools to be dispensed by them. A out Question put.
question was also asked as to whether
the new authority would have power to

Sir J. Gorst.

House adjourned at Half after Five o'clock till Thursday, 9th April.

Speech indicates revision by the Member. An Asterisk (*) at the commencement of a

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Thursday, 9th April 1896.

which the Department holds are not distinctive of any particular religious denomination; what steps, if any, were taken by the Department to ascertain the parts of the Catechism which were taught in the board schools reported in the Return of 1895 as using the Catechism, and to put an end to that use;

The House met after the Easter and whether the opinion of the Law Holidays.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.

WATERFORD INFIRMARY BILL.

Read 3o and passed.

QUESTIONS.

UNIVERSITY OF LONDON.

SIR ALBERT ROLLIT (Islington, S.) I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Committee of Council on Education, is it intended to introduce a Bill in pursuance of the recommendations, with or without modifications, of the Gresham Commission for the re-organisation of the University of London; and, if so, when, and in which House?

OF THE

THE VICE-PRESIDENT COUNCIL (Sir JOHN GORST, Cambridge University): I cannot give any definite answer to this Question. The matter is still under consideration, but the Lord President of the Council is at present abroad, and no final decision is likely to

be arrived at until his return.

CHURCH CATECHISM IN BOARD
SCHOOLS.

Officers of the Crown has been taken as to the legality of using portions of the Church Catechism in board schools?

SIR JOHN GORST: The Committee of Council is of opinion that the Creed, the Lord's Prayer and the Ten Commandments are not distinctive of any particular religious denomination. They believe their predecessors to have held a similar opinion, though it is not recorded in any official document, nor does the opinion of the Law Officers appear to have been taken on the subject. The Committee of Council have taken no steps to ascertain that the School Boards referred to are observing the law, as no complaint has reached them of its being violated.

MR. CARVELL WILLIAMS asked whether the Department would take steps with regard to the schools mentioned in the Return of 1895 ?

SIR J. GORST: Our Inspectors never interfere unless they have some reason to fear that some person is aggrieved.

INLAND REVENUE OFFICE
(GLASGOW).

MR. J. PARKER SMITH (Lanark, Partick): I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether he has received memorials from the Faculty of Procurators in Glasgow, the Glasgow Chamber of Commerce, the Glasgow Stock Exchange, and the Glasgow Society of Underwriters, calling his attention to MR. J. CARVELL WILLIAMS the inadequate provision at present (Notts, Mansfield): I beg to ask the existing for the stamping of documents Vice-President of the Committee of at the Inland Revenue Office in Glasgow; Council on Education, at what date, whether he is aware that it is impossible and in what official document, it was to get a document impressed in Glasgow decided by the Education Department with an embossed stamp of a larger that parts of the Church Catechism are denomination than sixpence, and that not distinctive of any particular religious great inconvenience and expense are in denomination, and may, therefore, be consequence incurred in sending docuused in board schools; whether the ments through to Edinburgh to be document will be laid before Parliament; stamped; and what steps he will take to what are the parts of the Catechism remedy the evils complained of? VOL. XXXIX. [FOURTH SERIES.] 12 D

THE SECRETARY TO THE TREA- | Majesty's Government have entered into SURY (Mr. R. W. HANBURY, Preston): any engagement with a Foreign Power The memorials mentioned by the hon. that the Egyptian forces will not advance Member have been received, and have into the Soudan beyond Dongola? been referred to the Commissioners of Inland Revenue. When their Report is received, I will give the matter my careful consideration.

PRESIDENT KRUGER.

OF

THE UNDER SECRETARY STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. GEORGE CURZON, Lancashire, Southport): No, Sir; Her Majesty's Government have not entered into such engagement with any Foreign Power.

SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT SIR ELLIS ASHMEAD-BARTLETT asked whether the report from Egypt (Sheffield, Ecclesall): I beg to ask the that Sir H. Kitchener had been ordered Secretary of State for the Colonies, to stay the advance at Akasheh was also whether President Kruger has accepted untrue? the invitation to visit England; and whether he has made any concessions to the grievances of the Uitlanders?

Mr. CURZON: I have seen no such report. Will the hon. Member put the Question on the Paper?

THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN, Birmingham, W): No, Sir; I have no ARMAGH PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS. information to give to the House.

to

the an under

MR. T. M. HEALY (Louth, N.) SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT : asked the Does the right hon. Gentleman expect Lord Lieutenant, whether Chief Secretary information at an early date? If so, I will put the Question down for a later day.

MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: As soon as I get any definite information it will be communicated to the House at once. If my hon. Friend will take that as an assurance he need not trouble to put down a further Question. [Laughter.]

ALLEGED MURDER IN THE
TRANSVALL.

SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies, whether he has information regarding the alleged murder of a British Officer or Trooper by Boers, near Blauwberg, in the Transvaal, on 4th January, about which an Inquiry was promised?

MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: There is very little doubt that the incident has been exaggerated, but I have no positive and absolute information. At present the matter is still under investigation. There is some difficulty in identifying the person who is reported to have been murdered, and I have been trying to get the names of the persons who are said to have witnessed the incident.

EGYPTIAN EXPEDITION.

SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whether Her

taking was not given that the Armagh Bills should not be taken until after Easter?

in course of payment during the year ending on opportunity for discussing the Customs the 31st day of March 1897, for the salaries Vote on Report? and expenses of the Inland Revenue Department."

MR. J. H. DALZIEL (Kirkcaldy Boroughs) said that an understanding had been come to with the First Lord of the Treasury that the Post Office Vote should be taken first.

MR. HANBURY said that undoubtedly it was arranged that the Post Office Revenue Departments Estimates were to be taken first; and he had thought that that order would be observed. But it was not in the discretion of the Treasury to say in what order the Votes should be put from the Chair.

MR. DALZIEL said that many Members who wished to raise questions on the Customs Vote were absent because of the undertaking which had been given that the Post Office Vote should be taken first. It was at least an unfortunate accident that the Customs Vote should have been taken first.

MR. HANBURY: I think it would be only right to do so.

Motion to report progress, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. HANBURY moved to withdraw the Inland Revenue Vote.

Original Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Motion made and Question proposed:

granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum "That a sum, not exceeding £6,442,120, be necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1897, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Post Office Services, the Expenses of Post Office Savings Banks, and Government Annuities and Insurances, and the Collection of the Post Office Revenue."

*SIR ALBERT ROLLIT desired to call attention to some of the grievMR. HANBURY said that he was ances of employés in the Post Office not aware of any arrangement having and Telegraph Departments. While the been made beyond that which was Departmental Committee was still sitcarried out by the Order Paper, on ting, it would not be right or in which were put down "Post Office and order to go into the whole subject, Revenue Departments Estimates." but there were some points as to which

MR. HERBERT LEWIS (Flint the Committee had ruled that they Boroughs) asked whether it was com- were not within the terms of reference, petent to put the Post Office Vote first? and, therefore, could not be entertained *THE CHAIRMAN: When a Vote by them. He admitted that under the has been proposed, it can only be with- late Government considerable improvedrawn on the Motion of a Minister of the Crown.

MR. HERBERT LEWIS moved :"That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again." He said they had been taken by surprise. There was a clear, distinct, and specific understanding that the Post Office Vote should be taken first.

ment took place with regard to the political privileges of employés of the Post Office, but the civil rights which had been conferred upon them were still subject to grave limitations. For instance, it was officially laid down that their political rights were to be exercised with due regard to discipline and discretion. He submitted that such a rule was vague, and thereMR. T. LOUGH (Islington, W.) fore might place the recipient of the hoped that the hint given by the Chair- franchise in a disadvantageous position. man would be taken by the Government. He should like to know whose discretion MR. HANBURY said that he was was referred to. Was it to reside in the anxious to carry out any pledge which particular member of the Civil Service or was given. He did not know the in the head of the Department? He Customs Vote would be put first. He could conceive nothing more dangerous would postpone the Inland Revenue to the individual and nothing more Vote until the Post Office Vote had embarrassing to a Minister than to have been disposed of.

MR. DALZIEL asked whether, in view of the departure from the understanding, the Government would give an

to determine a question of that sort. He did not know that in any other Department of the State there was any such official rule, and he asked why the Post