there subsisting. It was necessary to repu- MR. LLOYD-GEORGE said, diate that at once. That was a Treaty of were still three or four Motions to be a very onerous character indeed, entered discussed on this particular question, one into by us with Austria and with France, of which would require an hour's discusunder which each Power was bound on sion, and another two hours. After the requisition of either Power to join that the Report of Supply must be it in defence of the independence and taken, and that would be the only opintegrity of the Ottoman Empire-portunity they would have of raising two a most stringent and terrible obliga- or three questions of considerable imtion. They had lived 40 years since portance. He appealed, therefore to the then. The Government communicated First Lord of the Treasury to allow this with France and Austria that they discussion to be adjourned in order that would no longer be bound, under the the Report of Supply might be taken. altered circumstances of the day, by that MR. LOUGH supported the appeal of Treaty. Lord Derby then said there his hon. Friend. They were They were in this was not the remotest chance of their position, that they would have to pass ever being called upon by France or about six hours' Debate on the Report of Austria to co-operate under the Treaty. Supply when they got to it. The sugThey knew soon afterwards Russia was gestion was made in a conciliatory spirit. attacked by Turkey. The Treaty was THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREAnow of no value, and he thought it neces- SURY said, he had already stated the sary to rise to offer these few words as a position in which they stood. It must protest against the unguarded observa- be remembered that now the House had tions of the Under Secretary for Foreign an opportunity of discussing Supply Affairs. He every week. If hon. Gentlemen had *MR. EDWARD MOON (St. Pancras, taken the advice he gave in a spirit of N.) said, the operative part of the Article conciliation at 4 o'clock that afternoon, relating to Armenia in the Treaty of they would have been spared three hours San Stefano was reproduced verbatim of perfectly unnecessary Debate. in Article 61 of the Treaty of Berlin. was afraid he could not accept the sugArticle 61 further provided that the gestion. Powers should supervise the execution MR. LABOUCHERE thought the of the guarantees given by Turkey right hon. Gentleman would be surprised in the first part of the article. to hear that eight out of the 11 hon. The portion of Asia Minor which was Members who had spoken were supcovered by the Treaty of San Stefano porters of the Government. There were did not affect the district which had several matters which were ready for disbeen the scene of recent lamentable cussion. He understood that an hon. occurrences; he therefore thought that Member from Wales had a very imporit was unjust for hon. Gentlemen oppo- tant subject which he wished to bring site to say that Armenia would be in a forward, and, after that had been disbetter position to-day if they had not posed of, an hon. Member from Ireland prevented Russia having her way. had a subject of equal interest, which he They did modify the Treaty of San desired should be discussed. He himStefano so far as it applied to Turkey in self had an Amendment upon the Paper, Europe, but, so far as it applied to and after that the hon. Member from Turkey in Asia, the modification practi- Wales had got another subject-an altocally made no difference at all. gether new subject quite a different subject-which he proposed should be debated. He quite sympathised with the desire of the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury to get through the business of the House as rapidly as possible; but there was no earthly object in getting the Speaker out of the Chair on these Estimates that night, except that of facilitating the progress of busiIf the right hon. Gentleman were THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY suggested that the discussion should be brought to a conclusion as soon as possible. Such an abstract discussion in connection with our duty in Eastern Europe might well be left to another occasion. It had been discussed more than once in the present Session. *MR. GIBSON BOWLES asked leave to withdraw the Motion. ness. and Mr. Pickersgill. The hon. Member for Mid Cork declined to tell, and upon inquiry being made in the "No" Lobby, no other hon. Member was ready to tell. There being no Teller therefore for the " Noes," I declare that the "Ayes" have it. [Cheers.] WALES AND THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT to consent to adjourn the Debate until *MR. KNOX asked whether he was entitled to move the adjournment of the Debate? *MR. SPEAKER: I should not accept such a Motion. *MR. KNOX appealed to the right hon. Gentleman to consent to the adjournment of the Debate, on the special ground that not a single opportunity had been given to Debate any Irish questions on this Motion. *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The hon. Member is not speaking to the Amendment before the House. MR. LLOYD GEORGE rose to call attention to the operation of Section 10 of the Local Government Act of 1888, with the object of having it put into immediate operation as far as the Principality of Wales was concerned. He had intended to deal with Section 81 as well, but he understood from the Chair that it would not be competent to call attention to that section. *MR. SPEAKER: Section 10 deals with certain duties or powers of the Local Government Board; Section 81 merely deals with the voluntary action of the County Councils and Quarter Sessions, and those bodies did not come on the Estimates. MR. LLOYD-GEORGE said that Section 10 proposed that, after the passing of this Act Provisional Orders should be made for certain purposes-the transferring to County Councils of the powers, duties and liabilities of the Privy Council exercised by the Secretary of State, the Board of Trade, the Local Government Board, the Education Department or any other Department arising within the county of an administrative character. Sub-section 2 made certain provisions with regard to the Provisional Order of a purely executive character. Sub-section 3 provided that the powers, duties or liabilities referred Question put, "That the question be to in Provisional Orders arising within now put." *MR. KNOX asked, whether he was entitled to discuss the Armenian question upon this Motion? THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: I beg to move that the Question be now put. The House divided:-Ayes, 197; Noes, 55.-(Division List, No. 84.) The House was cleared for a Division, and Members were locked in the Division Lobbies, when Lord Stanley, one of the Tellers for the "Ayes," made a Report to Mr. Speaker, who thereupon ordered the doors to be unlocked. Members having resumed their places, *MR. SPEAKER said: I named two hon. Members as Tellers-Dr. Tanner Mr. Labouchere. At two or more counties might be trans- principle; indeed he spoke strongly in | inspector knew nothing of the wants of support of the section. At the time a the locality, and did not understand the Bill was introduced, and it was proposed language of the bulk of the population, first that certain powers of the Govern- and it was impossible for an inspector of ment Department should be transferred that character to report properly. There immediately to the County Councils. was no doubt that the Local GovernThere was appended to the Bill a ment Board was considerably underschedule of the powers which the manned. No one could suggest anything right hon. Gentleman contemplated against the officials of that Department. should be transferred immediately on There could not be a more hard-working the Act coming into operation. It was or courteous body, but at the same time intended that the section should operate it was perfectly obvious that it was with reference to piers and harbours, utterly impossible for them to master all tramways, provisional orders for gas and the details of the local cases that came electric lighting and other matters. The before them. He knew a case which present President of the Local Govern- happened recently, and which might ment Board, when the Measure was before have ended disastrously for the town Parliament, objected to a proposal to concerned. The authorities of the town, transfer these powers to the County which was a sea-side place, wanted to Councils before experience had been borrow money for the purpose of watergained of those bodies. Now, however, works. The whole prosperity and, such experience had been gained, and indeed, the very existence of the place there was no doubt that the County depended upon the carrying out of the Councils of England and Wales had done waterworks, but it was not without the admirably. The President of the Local greatest difficulty that the Local GovernGovernment Board, he felt sure, would no ment Board were induced to appoint an longer object to the transference of these inspector to inquire into the local circumpowers to the County Councils. There stances, the truth being that the Departwas, in fact, no reason whatever for ment was undermanned and had far refusing to put the section into operation. more important matters to attend to. The 3rd Section of the Clause contem- But the question was one of vital importplated the exercise of the powers referred ance to the town concerned. He thanked to by County Councils and by Joint the Secretary to the Local Government Committees of County Councils, and he Board for his action in the matter, should prefer that these powers or acknowledging that it was through his most of them at all events-should assistance that the Inquiry was at length be entrusted to Joint Committees rather granted. His first point was that the than to County Councils themselves. He Local Government Board had not got the took the first Government Depart- local knowledge, and his second that ment which was alluded to in the sec- they had not really the time to enter tion, the Local Government Board. into the minute details which must What were the powers of the Local necessarily weigh with any honest and Government Board? The sanctioning conscientious official before he granted of loans to local authorities, the sanc- sanction to the expenditure of the money tioning of orders with regard to parish of the ratepayers. It might be urged boundaries, the sale of property by local authorities, the supervision of poor law guardians, and the sanctioning of orders with regard to allotments. If an application was for the sanction of the Board for the expenditure of money, the Board sent down an inspector of more or less experience; but these inspectors did not know the language spoken by two-thirds of the people whose wants they came to investigate, and the result was that they were excluded from stating their view of the case. The Inquiry in many cases partook of the nature of a farce. The that local authorities were only too eager to spend money, and that it was necessary to exercise considerable vigilance with regard to them. But that vigilance was not exercised now, because the Local Government Board could not know anything about the district and had not the time to go into the questions. Then as regarded parish boundaries, such as the question of whether a certain field in one parish should be taken into another, and what proportion of the burden of taxation of the parish to which it was originally attached, should be relieved in respect of the transfer, were surely They must transfer the power either to matters which could be decided without the County Council or to Joint Comhaving to be brought up to London and dis- mittees of the County Councils, whose cussed in a Department which had already duty it would be to see the power exenormous interests to take charge of. ercised. No doubt the Local GovernSurely an insignificant matter of that kind ment Board had done everything they could be transferred to the local autho- possibly could do to relieve acute disrity. Another point to which he wished tress arising from the want of employto refer was the fact that the Local Gov- ment, but what could they do? They ernment Board had to be consulted with confined themselves to issuing circulars regard to any sale of property, however to the local authorities, and they only small, by the County Council. If the got stereotyped replies. It was not by Council had a small plot of ground, or issuing circulars they got people to an old building, they did not require, respect the law. If there was anyand wished to get rid of, they could not thing to be done it must be the sell it without first obtaining the con- result of local initiative. No doubt sent of the Local Government Board. the right hon. Gentleman would reWas not that absurd? If an individual collect the recommendations made in was capable of carrying out such a regard to the unemployed. Very well. matter of business for himself, surely a In certain cases modifications were made local authority, who knew all the local in districts where they were not required, circumstances, could be intrusted to do and in other cases modifications of a so. [Mr. MACLURE: "What about job- totally different character were made. bery?"] An hon. Member had referred The whole pointed to the conclusion that to jobbery, and his reply to the remark what they required to put the powers was, that in Manchester, the jobbery into effective use was local knowledge. which existed there at one time was dis- They must have local knowledge. The covered, not by the Local Government Local Government Board could not Board, but by the local authority. If possibly administer the poor law over a the people of Manchester had had to de-wide area. It was purely a question of pend on the Local Government Board in administration. He should not refer to the matter, they would have had to the Allotments Act and to larger holdings. wait a long time for the discovery. The There was a great difficulty in inducing very way to put an end to jobbery, or to local authorities to put these Acts into prevent it, was to place those matters in operation. In fact, they had a wholethe hands of the local body, who were some dislike to increasing the rates. It well acquainted with all the facts in con- was a duty with regard to the criminal nection with the transaction. To Boards law, if that was infringed, to enforce it. of Guardians, the Local Government They held that it was the duty of the Board issued voluminous reports with re- Government to see that the Acts of gard to the administration of the poor Parliament, which were of a constructive law. They were excellent publications, character, and which conduced to good and some he had read recently contained government, were carried out as well as very valuable recommendations as to the those of a repressive character. Take amelioration of the condition of the poor the Educational Department. A very in workhouses, and as to nursing and large portion of the administration was hospitals, but his contention was the re- given to the County Councils, and, as a commendations simply ended with the matter of fact, that had been done with printer's bill. There was no attempt to regard to higher and primary education put them into operation beyond what in Wales. All these powers had been the inspectors did. Those gentlemen conferred upon Joint Committees of the attended the meetings of the Guardians, County Councils. He thought they had but spoke in a language which was not worked with admirable success. He understood by three-fourths of the Mem- believed that in a few years it would bers of the Boards, and, consequently, become the best system, simply because their remarks had no weight. If good it had been administered by the local work was to be done there must be pres- authorities, and because there was local sure, not from an overworked Govern- initiative. There was unparalleled success ment Department, but from the locality. in building up the Educational system, Mr. Lloyd-George. all attributable to the fact that they had been set by the hon. Gentleman had begun with local initiative, local super- who had just sat down, and would delay intendence and local knowledge. His the House as little as he could in replying suggestion was that the procedure which to the hon. Member. We had now had had been followed with such success in some years' experience of the working of the matter of secondary education should County Councils, which, in his view, had also be followed in regard to primary been satisfactory, and had not justified education. At present they had got a the fears that were expressed at the time set of rules which had been framed for when the Act which created them was the whole kingdom, but which were passed into law. It was unnecessary for totally unadapted to the Celtic race, many him to delay the House long in reference of whom were mono-lingual. It was to the powers which the hon. Member only within the last few years that the desired should be transferred to the Minister for Education had been induced County Councils in Wales as speedily as to recognise the Welsh language at all, possible. The hon. Member had referred and a good deal of the credit of that was to the difficulty that was experienced by due to the right hon. Gentleman the the Inspectors of the Local Government Member for the Dartford division of Board in performing their duties in Kent, and the Welsh people would Wales, owing to their ignorance of the always feel grateful to him for recognising Welsh language. He fully admitted the separate educational requirements that there was some ground for the hon. of Wales. Then there were powers now vested in the President of the Board of Trade which, in the original draft of the Local Government Act of 1888 it was proposed to transfer straight off to the County Councils. He referred to the powers relative to piers, harbours, gas or electric lighting, and tramways. They had now got experience of County Councils, and, he thought it was incumbent on the President of the Board of Trade, who was one of the originators of the Act, to see that the transfer should now made. It was, absurd that they should have to come to the House of Commons, and go through the whole gamut of the officials in order to get a tramway or a gas company for a little village in Wales. At any rate, he would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman, if he would not transfer these powers immediately to the County Councils, that he should form a Welsh Department in the Local Government Board to deal with them. They only asked that the sytem which had worked so well in regard to Scotland and Ireland should be followed in regard to Wales. If the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board was not able to give him any undertaking at present that his suggestions should be carried out, he hoped that he would put them into operation when he had the opportunity of doing so. Gentleman's complaint, and he could assure the hon. Member that he would keep an open mind with regard to it. No doubt practical difficulties did arise from the fact, and he would see whether something could not be done to meet them. The hon. Gentleman had given a great many reasons why certain of the powers now exercised by the Local Government Board should be transferred to the Welsh County Councils, and one of his strongest reasons for the change he be proposed was that the Local Government Board itself was undermanned. It must, however, be remembered that a great number of additional duties had been imposed, by statute and otherwise, upon the Board during recent years he was afraid, with the result that it was true that sometimes their transactions were not carried out with the rapidity that could be desired, and that occasionally considerable delay had occurred. When the hon. Member asked him to consent to the transfer of these powers in the Principality of Wales, he must ask him to remember that the transfer had not been carried out anywhere up to the present time, and he could hardly expect him to give a definite pledge on the subject that night. It was the first occasion on which the question had been raised. He was not aware of any demand that had reached the Local THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL Government Board from any of the GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. HENRY Town Councils in Wales for the transfer CHAPLIN, Lincolnshire, Sleaford) said of these powers. He agreed that this that he would follow the example that was no reason why he should turn a deaf |