between £30,000,000 and £40,000,000 Government Measure it was, of course, of the ratepayers' money, was very great in the first place, necessary to disarm indeed; and he did not think that the the opposition it would be likely to other alternative ought to be put on one encounter. He soon discovered that to side altogether. It was stated that the do this it was necessary for the County outside authorities interested would be Council to abandon the arbitration very reluctant indeed to join in any clauses which were at present in the combination such as that proposed by Bill, and to rely on the ordinary law. the Government; they would be afraid To allow these Bills to proceed, thereof being brought into a body which fore, would simply entail enormous cost might possibly entail upon them a very and trouble on a variety of interests large and very unnecessary expenditure which would be affected without any in the future. He had been told also corresponding advantage to anyone. that they would prefer an autonomous [Cheers. The Government would make existence, and that they were perfectly every effort to pass the Measure they capable of taking care of themselves. had introduced in the other House. He did not doubt it. There was abso- While greatly regretting the necessity lutely nothing in the proposals of the which brought him at so early a date Government to prevent arrangements of into conflict with the great representathis kind from being made and carried tive authority of the Metropolis, he felt out in the future. On the contrary, the that he had no alternative except to outside authorities being strongly repre- oppose the Second Reading of the sented on the new body, they would be Transfer Bills. [Cheers.] in a far better position than they were *SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: A URT: at present to come to any desirable good many years ago I was called arrangements. The Government had upon to take an active part in the already inserted provisions in the Bill consideration of this question, and I specially designed to facilitate this think I ought to say a few words on object, and those provisions could be the position which it occupies to-day. easily strengthened if there should be It was so long ago that the right hon. any necessity for it. The hon. Member Gentleman might well have forgotten, for Shoreditch had referred to certain com- if, indeed, he ever read, the Report of munications which had passed between 1880. I should suppose that he had himself representing the County Council, not read the Report, because I ventured and the Government, in which he was the to point out that he omitted to read the intermediary. The object was to consider most important paragraph in it. ["No, whether any arrangements were possible no!"] I know something of the Report, by which the Transfer Bills of the probably more than the hon. GentleCounty Council and the Measure pro- men who cry "No." I had the advanposed by the Government might proceed tage of a most distinguished collaboramore or less together. He acknow-teur in that Report in the Secretary for ledged the appreciation which the hon. the Colonies; I think we may call it a Member had expressed of his readiness joint Report. Now, the great want at to consider proposals of that kind, and that time was some central municipal he assured the hon. Gentleman that the body which should be intrusted with appreciation was reciprocated. The business of this character, of which Birdifficulties of arriving at an arrangement mingham is a great example. There were immense, and, to some exrent, he being no such municipal body at that demurred to the interpretation which the time, we said in our Report that, in the hon. Member placed upon the particular absence of any single municipal body to cause of difficulty which terminated which those functions could be comthe negotiations. The possibility of mitted, a water authority of a represenany arrangement being made depended tative character should be constituted; entirely on the speedy passage of the but, of course, if there had been a single Government Bill, for a Committee upstairs municipal body we should not have concould hardly conduct their deliberations stituted another, and, therefore, the with reference to a hypothetical body passage to which the right hon. Gentlewhich had not yet come into existence; man referred was really an inferior alterbut to insure the speedy passage of the native to which we had recourse in the Mr. Chaplin. "they should have power to promote a Bill or Bills in Parliament for the purpose of constituting themselves the responsible water authority of London, acting through a statutory absence of a single municipal body. The Committee also said that, if the That was at the beginning of the Gov- County Council should resolve to act, ernment of 1880. They had in their minds at that time a Bill to constitute a single municipal body in London in a London Government Bill. I was Committee." responsible for that at the time, and Well, one such Bill was now under the having that in view, we looked to the consideration of the House in accordance constitution of a single municipal body with the Report of the Committee. in London. But we were not fortunate They went on :— enough to constitute that single municipal body, though when our successors, "The London County Council, if constituted the Conservative Government, came into the authority, should be required to purchase, power they did constitute it. ["No, no!"]rities of outside areas as may be arranged, the They left outstanding the Corporation of undertakings of the eight water companies." the City of London, but when the Committee of 1891, presided over by the present Home Secretary, sat, reference was made to the Committee of 1880 and to the declaration that when a municipal body was formed in London they were the proper people to be the water authority. Therefore, the Home Secretary put upon the Report of 1880 exactly the interpretation that I did in contrast to the interpretation of the President of the Local Government Board. The argument used just now by the right hon. Gentleman is this, that the London County Council is not the single municipal body which was intended by the Report of 1880. Then the right hon. Gentleman is at issue with his colleague the Home Secretary. I will read the words : "Your Committee therefore considers that it would be most desirable that the problem should be carefully and deliberately examined by this newly-constituted municipal authority either alone or in conjunction with such autho con Nothing could be more distinct. [" Hear, hear!"] The Government, they were told, had introduced а Bill dealing with the subject of the water supply, but that Bill did not stitute the London County Council Ministerial Benches.] Hon. Members opthe water authority. [Cheers from the posite did not desire that it should. There were a great many representatives of the water companies in that House. Any body who had ever attempted to deal with the water question was well aware of the number of these Gentlemen and of their influence in that House. But it was not an influence which was exercised and it was because it was not so exeralways in the interests of the consumer, cised that it was desirable that the water supply should be placed in the hands of some public body, which should have the interests of the consumer primarily at heart. ["Hear, hear!"] What was the meaning of the Government Bill as interpreted by the water companies? Lord Knutsford, who was their representative in the other House, said :— -namely, the London County Council. The interpretation of the Committee, then, was that the County Council should look after the interests of the water consumers in the Metropolis. In the view, also, of the Committee of 1891, the municipal authority that ought to be charged with these functions was the the very body which the Committee, County Council. They said : "Powers should be granted to the County Council to expend such further sums as may be reasonably necessary in order that they may examine thoroughly for themselves, as the responsible municipal authority of London, the whole question of the metropolitan water supply, and may come to a conclusion as to the policy which, for financial and other reasons, it is desirable to adopt." believed he spoke the general feeling of the "He was grateful to the Government-and he companies-for having stepped in and put an end to the designs of the London County Council" presided over by the present Home Secretary, declared ought to have charge of the water of London in the interests of the consumer. What are "the designs' of the County Council? To acquire the property of these companies and to administer it for the benefit of the public; and the Government, according to Lord Knutsford, have stepped in to prevent 25 London {24 MARCH 1896} Water Bills. 26 absence of a single municipal body. The Committee also said that, if the That was at the beginning of the Gov- County Council should resolve to act, "they should have power to promote a Bill or Bills in Parliament for the purpose of constituting themselves the responsible water authority of London, acting through a statutory I was Committee." ernment of 1880. They had in their minds at that time a Bill to constitute a single municipal body in London in a London Government Bill. responsible for that at the time, and Well, one such Bill was now under the argument used just now by the right hon. Gentleman is this, that the London County Council is not the single municipal body which was intended by the Report of 1880. Then the right hon. Gentleman is at issue with his colleague the Home Secretary. I will read the words : "Your Committee therefore considers that it would be most desirable that the problem should be carefully and deliberately examined by this newly-constituted municipal authority' -namely, the London County Council. The interpretation of the Committee, then, was that the County Council should look after the interests of the water consumers in the Metropolis. In the view, also, of the Committee of 1891, the municipal authority that ought to be charged with these functions was the County Council. They said :— be "Powers should be granted to the County Council to expend such further sums as may reasonably necessary in order that they may examine thoroughly for themselves, as the responsible municipal authority of London, the mestion of the metropolitan water supply, con Nothing could be more distinct. [" Hear, of the number of these Gentlemen and was not an influence which was exercised and it was because it was not so exer- "He was grateful to the Government-and he --the very body which the Committee, this being done. The Government pro- perform its task ably. But a large numpose to constitute a body in which the ber of hon. Members opposite seem to County Council will have an influence think that it is a sacred duty to attack which will not be at all in proportion the County Council. I really do not to the size of the population which they know why this is so. The hon. Member The right hon. Gentleman for Norwood openly avowed that he atrepresent. Is that a has said correctly that the allegation tacked the proposals made in these Bills. against the policy of the Government is on account of the Progressive quarter that it will postpone indefinitely any real from which they came. reform. If they had introduced a Bill sonable way of treating such a question for constituting an authority which as the water supply of London? should have power to deal at once with *MR. TRITTON: I said that I adthis question, we could have discussed mired the County Council on the whole, the subject on a proper basis. We should and I have never uttered a word against have seen whether the body to whom the it. ["Hear, hear!"] power of purchase was to be given was a better body to exercise such a power than the London County Council. As far as I understand--and the right hon. Gentleman does not deny it-the outside bodies affected by the Bill of the Govern- *MR. TRITTON: Yes, because, as ment do not want this scheme at all; I maintain, the Progressives on the they are not willing partners in the con- Council do not represent the bulk of the cern, and so you are going to set up a population of the Metropolis. body with a number of persons on it who *SIR W. HARCOURT: Well, the The right question is, How are we going to imdo not wish to be on it. hon. Gentleman says that they may make prove the administration of the water arrangements to get away from it; but supply? I do not think that improvesurely a scheme cannot be very workable ment will be facilitated by the rejection that provides for putting upon a body a of these Bills or the constitution of a The Bill of the Government is a dozen gentlemen who want to get away water trust which can do no possible from it. Does the hon. Member for the good. Uxbridge Division, who represents the measure that cannot work without the aid of further Bills. Looking at the water companies, agree with that? *SIR F. DIXON-HARTLAND: I whole history of this question, I regret have nothing to do with the water com- extremely that the Government should panies in any form. I have not a single have made up their minds to throw out, share in their property. ["Hear, hear!"'] so far as I know, the only practical pro*SIR W. HARCOURT: I did not posal for putting into the hands of a If you think there should mean to make any personal imputa- public body the water supply of the tion, but I must condole with the Metropolis. hon. Baronet [laughter]-because I be added to the County Council any are other representatives, that might be conam informed that their shares very substantial possessions. What I sidered, but there is nothing to prevent want to know is this: What is the you taking over the agreements that With probability, if these Bills are thrown have been made or may be made under. out by the House, that anything practical these Bills, and consequently getting to will be done within a reasonable time? work upon this matter at once. If these Bills were passed something reference to the Arbitration Clause, it practical would be done. The supplies could be altered by the Committee upof water for London would be acquired stairs if it appeared to be unjust, and through the County Council. I am glad all I will say about it is that it is, practo see here the creator of the County tically speaking, the recommendation of Whatever hon. Gentlemen another Committee. ["No, no!"] If Council. behind him may think of that body, he, it is not so, it is intended to be so and at any rate, has never disowned his off- can be made so. I understand the Govspring, and he has expressed perfect con- ernment have put their foot down against fidence that the Council if intrusted with any variation of the Arbitration Clause, nly of the metropolis, would and have insisted on taking the Lands |