MR. LLOYD-GEORGE hoped that the House would fully appreciate the reason of the objection which they had raised to this expenditure. In their opinion the dockyards should be placed

established their dockyards in more con- they could always bring the skilled labour venient places near the centres of mer-to the dockyards. It must not be forcantile shipbuilding, they would at all gotten that Keyham Harbour was well times be able to rely upon obtaining the defended, not only on the sea face, but services of as many skilled operatives as also on the land side, which would be a they might require. They were also most important fact in the time of war. entitled to complain that England was As the best of the alternatives before always chosen as the place in which them, the Government had chosen to dockyard accommodation was provided. carry out the plans that had met with This was a united Kingdom, consisting the approval of the House of Commons. of England, Scotland, and Ireland, and Scotchmen and Irishmen had a right to complain that the Government always selected England as the place in which dockyard accommodation was to be provided. The hon. Gentleman opposite as near to the centre of mercantile shiphad taken no notice of the objection building as possible, where skilled labour that had been raised that our dockyards might be obtained in a few hours. The were not conveniently situated either as hon. Gentleman opposite had said that regarded materials or labour. If in hands could be obtained from the Tyne time of war a ship was injured off the or the Clyde, but no wages that the north of Ireland where was she to go to Government could offer would induce for repairs? He hoped that the hon. men to remove from the place where they Member who moved the Amendment had carried on their employment all would go to a Division, and if he did so their lives. The objection which they he should certainly support him in order were now making had been raised reto mark his sense of the injustice of peatedly by hon. Members who spending all this money upon the dock-now yards in England.

were

on the Government side of the House when they were in Opposition. He objected to the money being spent entirely upon Portsmouth and other English dockyards.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE said that he was merely illustrating the position that he and other hon. Gentlemen near him had taken up in reference to this subject.

MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN said he would do his best to try and answer the various points that had been raised by the hon. Member for Caithness *THE CHAIRMAN: Order, order! and the hon. Member for Mid Lanark The hon. Gentleman is now resuming in connection with this subject. Both the Debate that was concluded some those hon. Members appeared to have time ago. I hope that he will not confallen into the mistake of supposing that tinue to repeat the arguments that have our dockyards were used only for ship already been used. building, whereas, in fact, they were also used for repairing. Both hon. Members had also asserted that the Government system was not a cheap one, because the dockyards were so far re- MR. CALDWELL said he wished to moved from the raw material that was call the attention of the Civil Lord to required for effective repairs. But the two points. First, in replying to the fact was that the Government were now argument based upon the expense of not only building but were executing conveying material to Keyham, the hon. repairs in the dockyards far more cheaply Gentleman said that the Admiralty were than they could get the work done by able to get their work done cheaper at contract in the North. The hon. Mem- Keyham than in the North. He wished ber for Mid Lanark had raised the point to point out that work done by private whether in time of war the Government enterprise was quite a different thing to would be able to get a sufficient quantity work done in Government dockyards, of skilled labour for the dockyartds. He and if there were a Government dockcould assure the hon. Gentleman that yard in the North, where iron and steel the Government found no difficulty in were produced, the work could be done obtaining any amount of skilled labour still cheaper than at Keyham. Then that they required. If they could not the Civil Lord said that there was no take the dockyards to the skilled labour difficulty about getting skilled labour at Mr. Caldwell.

MR. W. FIELD asked for an explanation of the enormous demand made by the War Office for Portsmouth docks. He objected to the south coast of England being converted into a naval depôt; it was a concentration that was not without its dangers, facilitating, as it did, the destruction of our dockyards by a hostile fleet. Cases had occurred of warships being damaged off Ireland to moveand almost sinking before they could reach England to be repaired. There did not appear to be any common sense in making vessels go such long distances for repairs, and there were positions in the north of England and in Ireland where repairs might very well be carried

The Committee divided:-Ayes, 179; Noes, 41.-(Division List, No. 72.)

Question put accordingly.

The Committee divided:-Ayes, 183; Noes, 37.-(Division List, No. 73.)

was a place not far off which would be far superior, and that was Falmouth. That was an extremely good place for boat sailing. [An HON. MEMBER: "No, no!"] But yes. The hon. Member who interrupted was the Member for the Division in which Dartmouth lay. [Laughter.] He did not wonder at him

*MR. GIBSON BOWLES moved, in being in favour of a quarter of a million page 4, line 35, to leave out :

Dartmouth College

for Naval Cadets 196,000 | 60,000 | 1899-1900

being spent on Dartmouth. [Laughter.] Falmouth had none of those conditions of high land, none of those untrue winds, flaws or sudden gusts which prevailed at He said that the proposed substitution Dartmouth. But he objected to any of a Naval College for the Britannia college whatever. He believed that the was sheer wantonnesss, due to the fact true college for a boy who was going to that the First Lord of the Admiralty had be a seaman was a ship and nothing else. more money than he knew what to do The proper way to teach the young cadet with. This year the Admiralty had was to catch him young and send him on developed a perfect wildness for bricks board the Britannia as they were taught and mortar, and seemed to forget that now. Then when the boy came to go to their real concern was with ships. He a sea-going ship he was prepared at any was not to be told in this matter that rate in these respects-he could go about the First Lord was adopting the advice safely, he had learnt the names of things, of his Naval advisers. The correspond- he had lived a ship's life, and could take ence in the newspapers had shown that up sea-going duties which he would be there was the greatest difference on the entirely incompetent to do if he was question between Naval officers; and the taken from a college on shore. He would best Naval opinion was all in favour of undertake to say that never at any period the old system with the Britannia. But of the nation's history had England had in any difference between experts, the such a splendid set of officers as the First Lord of the Admiralty had to Britannia had produced. They have decide himself; and, therefore, on him been tried in every capacity and never fell the responsibility for the decision in been found wanting. He defied the the present case. If the training of the right hon. Gentleman to find fault with cadets were to be continued on board the officers of the Navy. ["Hear, a ship, then no doubt Dartmouth had hear!"] Then why change the system? its advantages as a place where that ship ["Hear, hear!"] Were they going to might be moored. But if a college were way to the desires of a to be built, then Dartmouth was most few masters, mostly parsons, who did certainly the wrong site for that college. not want to live on the ship but It was an unwholesome and relaxing wanted a cabbage garden on shore? No; place, and there was constant sickness in the thing was too serious and the results the town. The only thing that enabled would be too serious to make such a the cadets on the Britannia to keep change as that without due cause. Of healthy was the fact that they were on course there were defects in the ship, water, and not on land. The Britannia but they could get a new one. He was was the healthiest place in or near Dart- defending, not the ship, but the principle mouth, because it was moored in running of training sailors on a ship and not on water, and there was a constant draught shore. He denied, however, that there were through the ship. The sickness there was sanitary objections to the Britannia; the less than that of any college on shore. amount of sickness was far less than in But Dartmouth was not the best imagin- Dartmouth itself. He had had two boys able place for training cadets under any there one after the other and their health circumstances. It was a bad place for was extremely good, and they were now boat sailing, for, shut in as it was by at sea and he hoped doing their duty. high land on either side, there was never [Cheers.] Of course they were doing a true wind blowing in the harbour. their duty. As to discipline, it was If they wanted a site for a college, there easier to maintain good discipline in a

give

that

He contended that the

THE FIRST LORD OF THE AD. MIRALTY (who was imperfectly heard) said, that in the general statement, he treated the general question of the education of the Navy. That had several branches, and the two matters to which he referred, had no connection with the whole part of the great question on education.

ship than if the cadets were rambling depart from it. about in a large college on shore; system of the college was in itself radimoreover, it was ship and not shore cally vicious. The right hon. Gentleman discipline. It was said that some of the said he wished to draw the boys from masters did not live on board, but the public school area, which was a the most important thing was smaller area. the naval officer should live on board, and that he did. His own opinion was and here he was supported by the opinion of the captain of the Britannia -that instead of spending two years on board ship the boy should be allowed to spend two and a half years. They had far more than they could do in two years, and it would be a great advantage if another six months were added. The right hon. Gentleman instead of doing that took half a year off, and he not only reduced the time, but he spoiled it, because that would be one and a half years not on ship but on shore.

He

*MR. GIBSON BOWLES said, it seemed that the right hon. Gentleman was rather more irrelevant when he made his statement, than he was when he (Mr. Bowles) made his.

statement on the Estimates, either when the House was going into Committee of Supply, or in Committee of Supply. It was then open to the hon. Member to criticise the statement, or to say anything he pleased. On the present occasion the only question before the Committee is the establishment or the non-establishment of this college.

*THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Memcame to the other consideration ad- ber seems to be challenging my devanced by the right hon. Gentleman. cision. I cannot allow that to pass. He said he wanted to get the boys from The right hon. Gentleman made his the larger area of the public schools. But that would be a smaller area, and, moreover, it was the area of the rich man's sons. The Navy had always been, and should always be, a poor service. It was not the rich man who made the great naval officer, it was the son of the poor Norfolk parson, who had eleven children the Nelson that was the man who made the great naval officer. It was not the rich man they wanted in the Navy, it was the poor man. Then if they took the boys from the public schools, what would be the result?

*THE CHAIRMAN: I do not see how the hon. Member can raise this subject on this question. This question relates solely to the establishment of a college on land, and not to the area from which the boys are taken.

*MR. GIBSON BOWLES said that, with respect, he was adducing the argument which the right hon. Gentleman had used.

*THE CHAIRMAN: The right hon. Gentleman has made no such statement on this part of the Bill. I have no doubt that in a former discussion on the matter the right hon. Gentleman may have made such a statement, but at present the only matter for the consideration of the Committee is the establishment of this college on shore.

*MR. GIBSON BOWLES said, if he was not allowed to discuss the point, he must

*MR. GIBSON BOWLES said, he believed he was right in saying that Mr. Lowther was not in the Chair when the right hon. Gentleman made his statement, and therefore he thought he was not challenging his decision, than which nothing would be further from his desire. He was sorry he could not show that the proposed change of system was not to be defended. He was profoundly convinced, that if they wished. to make seamen and officer seamen and not officer landsmen, they must begin by giving to them that training which had been accorded them hitherto on the Britannia, and which had been most successful. He had heard no good reason for complaining of the results of that system; and let the House believe him, that if they departed from it, they would rue the day they did so. They would not indeed at first see the effects of it. Many years would elapse after they had founded this college before they saw the final result of what he believed would be the serious deterioration

of their officers. Whatever might be the They would thus be stereotyping the ships they built, whatever might be the position and placing a college there, docks they constructed, it was at last on when perhaps, in the course of ten years, the men and the officers that the utility and the ability of the Service depended. He believed that, not merely the future of the Navy, but the future of the country, might be involved in any plan which tended to deteriorate the officers of the Naval Service. He was convinced they were taking, if they did take it, a most dangerous step-taken, it seemed to him, without due consideration and without due reason without any reason at all and he earnestly appealed to the right hon. Gentleman not to persist in a course which, he was convinced, could not but end in disaster.

a change might occur. For instance, the age of the boys might be raised to 15 to 17 years; and he did not think that anyone would be rash enough to keep lads in a college at that age, instead of sending them out and bringing them under discipline at once. In view, therefore, of raising the age further, he thought it would be a fatal error to place a college at Dartmouth, which might have to be used eventually as a lunatic asylum. This question had been dealt with in the recommendations of a former Sites Committee of the Admiralty, presided over ADMIRAL FIELD contended that it by a distinguished officer. The question was of paramount importance that a of sites was referred to the Committee, false step should not be taken. He and in their Report it was said that the agreed with his hon. Friend in the main Solent afforded superior advantages for propositions which he had urged; though, the cruising of a training ship. If, thereof course, he did not agree with every- fore, a site could be found on the banks thing the hon. Member had said. It of the Solent, the Committee recomwas, however, of paramount importance mended the selection of the latter site. that a false step should not be taken. They further pointed out the disadvanWhat was the system pursued by the tage of a heavy rainfall at Dartmouth Admiralty, with the approval of the during a large portion of the year, House at the present time, in the manu- whereas the situation of the Solent was facture of seamen to supply the waste more favourable in this respect. He did life in the Navy? They were in posses- not wish himself to indicate any parsion of the best ships in any country, all ticular site in preference to another, commanded by efficient officers. Under but he urged that the relaxing character that system, over 4,000 boys were turned of the climate at Dartmouth was a grave into the Service per annum; and he objection to the selection of a site at failed to see how the First Lord of the that place. Nor did he wish to prolong Admiralty could be a party to the pro- the conflict on this matter, but, feeling prosal of training Naval Cadets in an so strongly upon it as he did, he must artificial manner in a college on shore. ask the First Lord of the Admiralty He appealed to the right hon. Gentleman not to thrust this proposal down the to remember the system pursued in order throats of those who objected to it to supply the officers of the Mercantile by a Vote of the House. ["Hear, Marine at the present time. Could it hear!"] The right hon. Gentleman be urged that the system of training might at least follow the course prewhich was good for the officers of the viously adopted by his predecessors, and Mercantile Marine was bad for the appoint another Committee composed of yonng Naval officers? Not only had naval and medical men to go thoroughly this policy been pursued with regard to into the question. More than 20 years boys and officers of the Mercantile had passed since the last Committee Marine, but they also pursued a system reported, and many changes had taken of industrial training ships round the place since then. Sites which were then coast. No doubt some Naval officers considered to be desirable might have had changed their views on this point; since become undesirable, and so in the but the great body of Naval officers had contrary sense. Such a Committee not changed their views. He contended would not take long to report-not that it was a different thing to build a more than three months-and by that college and place it at Dartmouth for means full information might be all time, so that it could not be moved. obtained. For hon Members must Mr. Gibson Bowles.