this Motion would save the right hon. 'conformed to. The right hon. Gentle Gentleman, the Leader of the House, from much pressure from those interested in various Bills and deputations. man must know perfectly well that the Rating Bill and the Education Bill could not be disposed of in the time proposed to be alloted to them. Three of the Wednesdays were given up unconditionally. Why Simply because the Benefices Bill would be put down on those days, a Bill for which exceptional measures had already been granted to carry it through Grand Committee. It was a curious fact that these measures had never been proposed except in regard to clerical or ecclesiastical Bills. This was simply a measure of patriotism, and by way of protest he supported the Amendment. Question put, "That the word 'any' stand part of the Question." THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY said he was afraid he had expressed himself earlier in the day very imperfectly. He thought he had made quite clear exactly what would happen on Wednesdays under certain conditions, and by that declaration, made on his responsibility as a Minister and on behalf of his colleagues, he had put it absolutely out of his power, without a breach of faith to the House of Commons, to exercise that species of favouritism which hon. Members opposite appeared to suspect. [Ministerial cheers.] The Government did retain, by the common law of Parliament, those The House divided: :- Ayes, 289; very powers of selection of which hon. Noes, 138.-(Division List, No. 118.) Members tried to deprive them. The Amendment therefore left him the MR. HERBERT ROBERTS (Denfullest power of favouritism where he bighshire, W.) moved to insert words could exercise it, and take it away from providing that the Resolution should not him where he could not exercise it. come into operation before Whitsuntide. What was the common sense underlying He had a personal interest, he said, in a proposal of that kind? If these argu- this, because on the 19th of May he had ments were not sufficient, let him point first place with a Resolution of great out that the spirit of this Amendment importance and general interest-the would make it impossible after Whitsun-question of railway rates. If that Resotide to give precedence or any facility at lution were carried as it stood it would all to any Bills that had passed the be carried by an unwilling House. Grand Committee. That ought not to be the intention of the House. If it conding the Amendment, said the Welsh were the intention of the House, he Members had been treated worse than must resist it on behalf of the Govern- any other section of the House. [Laughment, and, as he believed, of the general ter and "Hear, hear!"] This was the opinion of his side of the House. He first Session during the four years he hoped, therefore, the hon. Gentleman had been in the House that they had would not press his Amendment to a been successful in the ballot, and now Division. MR. HERBERT LEWIS, in se night after night was to be taken away from them. If they did not get the nights before Whitsuntide, when they could concentrate their discussion, it would be necessary to range all over the Estimates and Bills as well. MR. LLOYD-GEORGE was about to address the House, when MR. LLOYD-GEORGE said, that when the Leader of the House spoke of its being in his power at the present moment to show favouritism to any particular Bill by giving a particular night for the purpose of discussing that Bill, he forgot that such favourites would be indulged at their own expense. What the right hon. Gentleman proposed now was that a selection should be made of Wednesdays which belong to private Members, and that was what he objected to. had promised five Wednesdays, of which now put." The right hon. Gentleman THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put. [Cheers and cries of “Oh, oh !”] Question put, "That the Question be two were promised conditionally, but The House divided:-Ayes, 273; the conditions could not possibly be Noes, 130.-(Division List, No. 119.) Sir Joseph Pease. Question put accordingly, "That the thought it his duty to make a comwords after Whitsuntide' be there munication to the Press which appears inserted." The House divided :-Ayes, 123; Noes, 265.-(Division List, No. 120.) Mr. R. J. PRICE (Norfolk, E.), who had the next Amendment on the Paper, providing that Wednesdays should not be taken for Government business unless three clear days' notice were given of such appointment, rose to speak, when THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY claimed, "That the Main Question be now put." Main Question put accordingly. The House divided:-Ayes, 266; Noes, 124.-(Division List, No. 121.) only this morning, and which I saw only this afternoon, in condemnation of my attitude and the attitude of my colleagues and the Government and also a large majority of the Commission in reference to this Bill, and I think it perhaps only due to myself and the House that I should make a brief reply to those statements. He begins by stating, in reference to my speech made upon the introduction of the Bill, that although 10 out of the 17 members of that Commission are in favour of the recommendation of the Commission-not, he says, 12 gentlemen, as I stated in my speech-there was no inquiry made whatever into the merits or defects of the proposal. That statement is wholly inaccurate. What I said in my speech was that 12 gentlemen on that Commission, with some reservations, signed the majority Report, and, as a matter of fact, there was any amount of discussion on the merits and defects of the proposal which was made. He goes on to say that "there was no evidence taken in favour of relieving the land by a certain proportion." In the month of February 1895, a witness was called from the Scotch Office on this question, and he gave a great deal of evidence; in March 1895, when the right hon. Gentleman to whom I am referring was President of the Local Government Board, one of the officials in that office was called. He gave evidence, and among other great authorities he quoted Sir George Cornewall Lewis in favour of the proposal. He was asked whether he On the return of Mr. SPEAKER, after himself was in favour of the proposal, the usual interval, Resolved, That for the remainder of the Session the House do meet on Tuesdays at Three o'clock; that Government Business have priority over all other Bills and Notices of Motion on any day for which it is appointed; and that the provisions of Standing Order No. 56 be extended to every day of the week. ORDERS OF THE DAY. AGRICULTURAL LAND RATING BILL. He says, and he suggested that more evidence was *THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL desirable before a decision was come to GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. H. by the Commission, especially from CHAPLIN, Lincolnshire, Sleaford) moved Scotland. In the summer of 1895 the the Second Reading of the Agricultural Commission took any amount of evidence He said: After on the point. Land Rating Bill. 66 "The Scotch having spoken already on two occasions system is different from the gigantic with reference to this Bill, I am sorry to scheme of relief proposed by the Bill." be obliged to intervene for a few I would remind the House that the moments to ask the permission of the Leader of the Party opposite spoke of it House to allow me to make a very short the other night as a dole attempted to statement dealing with a single matter, be dealt out to a depressed industry. which arises in this way. A gentle- [Cheers.] "Up to January 22 of this man who had some connection indirectly year,' ," he goes on to say, he had no with this Bill-the Chairman of the idea that any such scheme was in conRoyal Commission now sitting upon templation.' I am not surprised at it. agriculture (Mr. Shaw Lefevre)-has After our experience of that gentleman 66 66 goes on "The real sequence of events was that the Report was made in order to bolster up a scheme already decided on." on that Commission I think there are | Report, under the heading of "Local few members of it who would be disposed Taxation," "I leave it to the Commisto take him into their confidence. "Onsion to make recommendations on this that day," he says, "January 22, the head." ["Hear, hear!"] There was scheme was sprung upon the Commis- very little time to decide what we had to sion." What happened was this. The do. It resulted in the recommendation Commission met on January 23, and the of the course which received so much Report was circulated on the 21st. He condemnation at his hands. He says, "They were asked on the following to say :— day to commit themselves to the Report." It is not so. They were asked to consider on that day whether an ad interim Report was desirable, and, if so, to agree to consider the Report which was circulated. Again he says, "henceforth it was pressed with the utmost haste.' What are the facts? The moment it was agreed to consider an ad interim Report, the proceedings were adjourned for a week at the express request of this gentleman. The part of the Report dealing with local taxation was agreed to be still further postponed, and it was postponed until the 6th of February. As that part of the Report consists only of four pages and 17 paragraphs, I should think that that was а reasonable allowance of time in which to give proper consideration to the question. I may be asked why it was not produced before, and thereby hangs a tale. We were waiting for a promised Report on the part of the Chairman of the Commission. We re ceived it in two parts--the first part on the 17th of December, and the second early in January. When we received it there were two points which appeared to me to deserve our very serious consideration and to impose upon the Royal Commission the task of deciding what course, under these exceptional circumstances, it was necessary for them to take. The first of those points was this. It appeared to meet with so little favour or support on the part of any members of the Commission that there was no chance whatever of its adoption. It was met with a motion by one of those who are called the minority calling upon the Chairman to take back his Report and to recast it more in accordance with the evidence. We should have been left with nothing whatever to consider. The second point is this-that all reference to the question of local taxation was omitted, and there appeared in his Mr. H. Chaplin. I should like to ask on what possible Report was made is absolutely untrue. Chairman informs us, "If I had been interested in agricultural land I should, I doubt not, have been equally unable to refuse the proposed boon." He is entitled to speak for himself, and I have not a doubt that he has truly described his own motives and his own methods, but let him not speak for others. We supported the proposals that we made in that Commission, and I support the proposals we have made in this House because we believe them to be wise, because we believe them to be expedient, and, above all, because we believe them to be just. [Cheers.] And the first time, he goes and publishes when he goes on to say that, what I think I am justified in describing as this tissue of fictions. [Cheers.] I have been a little surprised more than once in the course of our Debates at some of the statements which have been I take leave to tell the right hon. Gen-made by responsible and leading Memtleman the Chairman of this Commission, bers opposite. I used to wonder where on behalf of my colleagues who have on earth they could have got their inforbeen serving on it for two years, that I mation from. Now it seems to me repudiate his statement as a libel and a possible that I may be able to undercalumny on a Commission which he stand. I wish to say that I entirely ought to have been the first person acquit every one of them in this respect. to defend. [Cheers.] After what I have When I pointed out one or two mis-statesaid already, I do not think the House ments that were made, nothing could be will be surprised if I tell them something more generous than the way in which they else. I regret to say, I grieve to say, were withdrawn by right hon. Gentlethat in the course of the labours of the men opposite. But it leads me to take Commission there have been occurrences this opportunity to reply to some of the which, thank God, have been foreign to observations that were made, in perfect my knowledge altogether upon any other innocence, I am sure, by the right hon. Commission or Committee on which I Gentleman the Member for Wolverhave served in the course of my nearly hampton on the introduction of the Bill. 30 years' career as Member of Parlia- He talked of this singular Report; he ment. So many statements were made said there was no controversy between at the commencement of the proceedings the Commissioners as to its wording, of the Commission injurious to the and that where the Commissioners motives, the action, and the policy of the differed was on the Report dealing with Where he majority of the Commission, and they the one subject of the rates. were so constantly reaching the Press, got his information from at that time I that it became necessary to propose that did not know. I knew it was from an an honourable understanding should be entirely unreliable source, because it was arrived at among all its members that untrue in every particular. The whole no communication whatever should be of the Report was discussed clause by made by any one of its members to the clause ; various Amendments were Press without the sanction and know- moved to it, and some of them were ledge of the Commission. Notwith- carried. When it was put to the vote standing that understanding, we have its amended form there were had sometimes since then to complain only two of the Commissioners who of similar occurrences, and the Com- voted against it. Then, again, instead mission in consequence agreed to a of dealing with one subject, it dealt Resolution which, I think, under the with three. It dealt with the question circumstances, I may be allowed to of the Land Tax, the question of local read to the House: sion in their earlier sittings, no communication The taxation, and with the question of loans for agricultural improvements. Those "The Commission considers that, in view of were the subjects on which it was held previous discussions and the general under- to be important that a Report should be standing which was arrived at by the Commis- presented before the financial policy and with regard to their proceedings except as to the financial proposals of the Governsummaries of the evidence which has been taken, ment for the year were announced. ought to be made to the Press without the know- right hon. Gentleman the Member for ledge and sanction of the Commission, and any Wolverhampton doubted whether there such communications will be regarded by its members as a breach of faith to the Com- was any statement before the House mission." showing where the Commissioners differed. The answer is very simple ; That Resolution, to which the Chairman it is in print. The majority Report was a party, was unanimously adopted, is contained in 12 pages, and no less and yet, in face of this and behind than 30 pages are occupied by memthe back of the Commission, not for bers of the minority in explaining where and in what respects they differ from the find an opportunity, either through the majority. Again, the right hon. Gen- Press or through some right hon. Memtleman has been grossly misled in ber near me, to explain those points on another case. He said that Sir Alfred which the President of the Local GovMilner was not cross-examined. But, ernment Board has commented in such as a matter of fact, he was cross-strong language to-night. ["Hear, examined on two different days at con- hear!"] I am not going to delay the siderable length, and by the Chairman of the Commission himself. ["Hear, hear!"] There are many other matters in the letter of the Chairman of the Commission touching the merits of the Bill itself, upon which I shall say nothing at this moment, but which may very well be dealt with in the course of the Debate so far as it is necessary to deal with them; but I thought it right, in justice to my colleagues on that Commission and to myself, and in order that the House might not be misled, that I should take the earliest opportunity in my power to reply to the statements I have referred to, and I hope the House of Commons will think I am right in having done so. [Cheers.] I beg to move that the Bill be read a Second time. *SIR HENRY FOWLER (Wolverhampton, E.) moved to leave out from the word "that" to the end of the Question, in order to add instead thereof the words My House, for I do not think it necessary to do so, by any observations on the differences of opinion among the members of the Royal Commission on Agriculture. We are here to-night to deal with a Bill introduced by Her Majesty's Government, the Second Reading of which has been moved by the President of the Local Government Board. right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition warned the Government the other night that this Bill meant the reopening of the whole question of local taxation. ["Hear, hear!"] But the Leader of the House treated the Bill to-night very jauntily. He seems to be of opinion that it is merely a one-clause Bill-["hear, hear!"]-that it is simple in its object and in its details and is being opposed only on Party grounds, and that the Opposition might be exceedingly brief in dealing with it. Before the Bill leaves the House I think the right hon. Gentleman will find that he has been considerably misinformed in this respect. ["Hear, hear!"] But whether the Leader of the Opposition was right or not in saying that the Bill would raise the whole question of local taxation and I think he was perfectly right-there can be no doubt that it is The right hon. Gentleman said: I am impossible to discuss the proposals of the quite sure that the feeling which has Government without having a very clear prevailed on this side of the House understanding in our minds as to the since the General Election is one of facts and figures relating to our system of regret that the right hon. Gentleman local taxation at this time. We cannot Mr. Shaw Lefevre was among deal with these proposals in an isolated those who were not fortunate enough manner; we must look at local taxation to succeed in that contest-[cheers] as a whole, and I propose, in the first -and that that feeling must now instance, to trouble the House with a be intensified. ["Hear, hear!"] A few of the facts of the case. [Cheers.] gentleman is placed at a singular disad- By the last Local Government Board vantage when criticisms so exceptionally Report for 1894-5, which, of course, severe are passed upon his letter as refers to the figures of the previous year, have been made by the right hon. Gen- local taxation in England and Wales, tleman to-night, and he has not the oppor- exclusive of all rates for gas and water, tunity of at once explaining or justi- was, in round figures, £30, 250,000, and fying his action. ["Hear, hear!"] I those rates are levied on a rateable value have listened with great attention to of 160 millions. That sum of 301 what the right hon. Gentleman has said, and I have no doubt that before the Debate closes my right hon. Friend will Mr. H. Chaplin. "This House, while recognising the desirability of readjusting the burdens of local taxation, is of opinion that it is inexpedient and unjust that relief granted from Imperial taxation to rateable property should be restricted to one class only of such property." millions averages all round 3s. 10d. in the pound. The first question I will put to the House is, Where are those 301 |