MR. LABOUCHERE: I want you to give a day.

had given some sort of assurance that a rule. If I carried out the wishes of day was to be given for its discussion. hon. Gentlemen, they would be no He did not complain of the hon. Mem- nearer the realisation of their hopes than ber for Waterford being ready to make they are now, because, by the Standing a bargain, or to sell himself to the Gov- Orders, Wednesdays after Whitsuntide ernment, but the hon. Member ought are practically earmarked for the Bills to take care to be well paid for it. which have been advanced a certain [Laughter.] He was ready to sell him- stage. self-[laughter-and if the Government would give him a Wednesday for his Bill he would vote for the Government Reso- THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREAlution, although he thought that it was SURY: I would refer the hon. Member an abominable one. The hon. Member to the Leader of the Opposition. In had sold himself for a vague, indefinite the earlier part of the discussion the promise that some time in September, Leader of the Opposition told us that or otherwise, the Irish Land Bill would once in his Parliamentary career he had be brought before the House. But the given a Wednesday for the discussion of hon. Member should be well aware that a special Bill. The right hon. Gentlethis Bill was not intended to come man said that, so hard had been his before the House. The Government experience in consequence of that action, practically said: "Let us keep the that he never would be betrayed into a Irish Members quiet during the discussions on the Education Bill and the Rating Bill by telling them that if they behave themselves properly they will have something to discuss in connection with Irish land."

similar proceeding. That Bill, I believe,
was the Eight Hours Bill [laughter],
and after that declaration from the
Leader of the Opposition, I think hon.
Members can hardly expect me to follow
a course which has been condemned by
that high authority. [Laughter.] Then
questions have been asked as to the Bills
that stood first for Wednesday May 13,
and Wednesday, May 20.
I have ex-
plained precisely what the Government
propose to do with regard to both those
Wednesdays. If the Committee on the
Rating Bill is concluded before those

MR. J. REDMOND: We are in favour of the Education Bill. [Cheers.] MR. LABOUCHERE said, that though the hon. Member might be silent on that Bill, he could not suppose other hon. Members would be silent. They intended to oppose those two Bills to the best of their ability. The Leader of the House had said nothing in his state- Wednesdays, then they will be free; if ment about the fourth Wednesday; but it is not, then they will not be free. he observed that on that day there was The policy is a plain one. Our course a Bill down giving to women certain is taken simply and solely with a desire rights that they had not at any time to promote the business of the House in possessed in this country-in fact, to accordance with the principles I have absolutely unsex them. [Laughter.] He laid down. My right hon. Friend the should like a very definite assurance Member for London University thinks from the right hon. Gentleman that, if that the House should not content itself the Resolution passed nothing, more with the definite promise, the explicit would be heard during this Session of pledge given by the Government that the Woman's Rights Bill. [Laughter.] [Laughter.] the first two Wednesdays after WhitTHE FIRST LORD OF THE TREA- suntide, and possibly the first three, SURY: I think it may be convenient would be set aside for the discussion of to the House that I should now briefly Bills that had gone through the Grand reply to the numerous questions which Committees. have been put to me, and to the not less numerous criticisms which have been urged against my Motion. Several hon. Gentlemen have put questions with regard to the Eight Hours Bill, requesting the Government to except the Wednesday on which this Bill stands first from the general operation of this

My right hon. Friend wished me to go further, and to embody in a resolution or give a pledge that no Wednesday would be taken after Whitsuntide until every Bill that had passed through a Grand Committee should have passed through the remaining stages and become law. I cannot give a pledge of that kind, and no such policy has ever

THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: No; what I said was that the Second Reading of the Irish Land Bill would be taken before the Committee stage of the Education Bill and after the Committee stage of the Rating Bill. Now I pass to what fell from my right hon. Friend behind me with regard to the Land Bill. He said that the Bill was regarded as non-controversial, and that it might, therefore, be referred with propriety to a Grand Committee. It would be quite wrong on my part to give

been adopted in the past. It would | Second Reading of the Irish Land Bill
deprive us of Wednesdays after Whit- until after the Committee stage of the
suntide for an indefinite period. I hope, Education Bill.
therefore, my right hon. Friend will be
content with the general pledge which I
have given, which shows, I think, a fair
spirit towards those hon. Members who
will have been fortunate enough to get
their Bills through Grand Committee by
Whitsuntide. I now come to the broader
issues that have been raised. The first
allegation against the Government is that
they have committed themselves to a
programme which is unduly long. I do
not think, however, that the programme
which I have unfolded to the House this
evening can be regarded, when measured any immediate answer to so novel a pro-
by any known Parliamentary standard, posal. It is quite true that the objec-
as excessive or extravagant. ["Hear, tions that we have raised to the reference
hear!"] When I am told by hon. Mem- of certain Bills to the Grand Committees
bers opposite that the Education Bill is were based almost wholly on the fact
a Measure of such gigantic complexity, that they were Bills of a very controver-
and of so controversial a character, that sial character. If this Bill is not of a
an almost infinite and illimitable period controversial character, that particular
would not be too much to devote to its objection, of course, would not hold
discussion, I must remind them that good. But I can say no more at present.
the Act of 1870, the first great educa- The point will receive full consideration
tional Measure of this country, which laid by myself and my colleagues, and at a
down the great principles upon which later stage of our proceedings I shall be
public elementary schools are conducted, ready to communicate our decision to the
and which raised the most bitter reli- House. In answer to the hon. Member
gious and denominational differences, both for East Mayo, I have to say that he has
inside and outside this House, occupied al- misunderstood the whole scope of my
together only 23 days, including the First speech if he thinks that I intended to
and Second Reading, the Committee and threaten the Irish Members with the
Report stages, and the Third Reading. loss of the Bill if Amendments to it
The Second Reading took three days. were proposed. I made no threats of
The Bill contained 100 clauses, and no any kind, but simply laid before the
one who knows anything about that House the practical aspects of the case.
Bill can pretend that, in length, or I say now that, even if an almost im-
difficulty, or novelty, or complexity, moderate amount of time is taken up by
or controversial matter, there is any the Rating Bill and the Education Bill,
comparison between that Measure and there will still be time to pass the Land
the Bill that has been introduced Bill if hon. Members who are interested
[Opposition cries in it will consent to pass it without
If hon. Mem-raising every conceivable point that
same modera- might be legitimately raised. It will be
tion with respect to the Education Bill for them to decide whether the period
as was shown by their predecessors when allotted to the discussion is sufficient or
dealing with a far more controversial not, and to determine whether or not
Bill on the same subject, I see no reason their duties to their constituents dictate
why that other Measure which has been the policy of allowing the Measure to
referred to-namely, the Irish Land Bill
pass. The choice will lie with them, and
should not pass into law.
to their consciences it must be left to
decide what the decision shall be. [“Hear,
hear!"] I think the House must see
that our demand is not an unreasonable
one, and I may fitly conclude by remind-
ing the House that the Gentlemen who

by the Government.

of "Oh!" and cheers.]

bers will but show the

MR. J. MORLEY (Montrose Burghs): There is some doubt as to the exact plan which the right hon. Gentleman proposes with respect to this Bill. I understand that he does not propose to take the First Lord of the Treasury.

have told us that we ought not to ask the country in its favour, and he felt for more time are the same Gentlemen persuaded that if hon. Members oppowho have exhausted all their powers of site would consider the strong injustice language to describe the long and bitter that was being done to the Scotch people discussions of which the Measures of the in this matter they would really feel in Government are to be made the subjects. their hearts that it would be very hard If these Gentlemen treat the Education indeed, that after their patience and Bill and the Rating Bill as they have perseverance during the last 12 years, threatened to do they will themselves when an opportunity occurred whereby supply a complete answer to all the they were entitled to first place on a objections they have raised against this Wednesday, the Leader of the House Motion. ["Hear, hear!"] should step in and take possession of MR. JOHN WILSON (Govan) moved that day. It was all very well to say to exclude Wednesday the 29th instant that when the Rating Bill passed they from the operation of the Resolution, would have Wednesdays. That would that being the day on which the Liquor not satisfy Scotchmen. He appealed to Traffic Local Veto (Scotland) Bill was to the right hon. Gentleman to give Wedbe brought forward for a Second Read-nesday the 29th, for the discussion of ing. He complained that in the Minis- this subject, and if he did so, it would terial cargo of Bills there was not one be creditable to himself and to the Measure of Scotch origin. The Bill House of Commons. He begged to which he had mentioned as standing on move his Amendment. the Paper for Wednesday was a Bill to MR. J. COLVILLE (Lanark, N. E.), give the people power to protect them- in Seconding the Amendment, contended selves against a great and growing social that it was the duty of Scotch Members evil. A very large number of the Scot- to protest most emphatically against the tish people were anxious that a discus-action of the Government in taking sion should take place on this subject in away the only opportunity that had that House, and during the last two occurred during the Session for the months shoals of petitions had been sent discussion of a Scotch Measure. up in favour of the Bill. Sunday Government in this Parliament had closing had been the law in Scotland for received a much larger share of support a great many years, and during the last from Scotland than on former occasions, 10 years the hours during which public for Scotland had sent more supporters of houses could remain open had been Conservative principles to the present shortened. Public opinion was now House of Commons than previously. In ripe for further restrictive legislation on three of the largest cities in Scotland, this question. For the protection of Glasgow, Edinburgh, and Aberdeen, the homes and families, and in the interests principle of this Measure had been of the religious life of the country, some affirmed by large majorities thing more should be done to stay the plébiscite, and during the Recess the ravages of this great evil. In almost Secretary for Scotland at a Primrose every town in Scotland there was abun-League meeting frankly admitted that dant evidence that the feeling of the there was great need for a revision of people was that they should be em- the present licensing authority in powered to deal with this question in Scotland. their own way.' He trusted, therefore,

The

on a

*MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member that the Leader of the House would cannot make on this Amendment those recognise the propriety of excluding observations which he might make on next Wednesday from the Resolution. the Second Reading of the Bill.

If he should refuse to exclude it MR. COLVILLE said, he would not that action would not conduce to pursue that line of argument. Nothis popularity in Scotland. The great withstanding the great changes in the majority of the Scotch Representatives Liberal Party during the last 16 years, were in favour of the Bill. Those who Scotland had maintained her faithfulness were not in favour of the Bill knew to its principles, and notwithstanding that there was a strong sentiment in the great change in political parties last VOL. XXXIX. [FOURTH SERIES]. 4 K

year, there was still a great majority hon. Gentleman reverted to a private

from Scotland in favour of this Bill. On both sides of the House there were hon. Members pledged to procure for Scotland what the Colonies had had for many years. He therefore desired to enter his protest against the Motion of the right hon. Gentleman, and to say while it had not previously been his intention to offer a stubborn opposition either to the Rating or the Education Bill, he would consider it his duty to do so now.

THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: I have already explained the reasons why I cannot accept the Amendment.

Members' day, and instead of proceeding with the Irish Land Bill he was to have an interval, when the private Member was to resume his rights, and after that the right hon. Gentleman would again appropriate the time. It was a remarkable fact, which could not be ignored, that the particular Measure for which a Wednesday was to be allowed, had, he believed, the support of the right hon. Gentleman himself. That was an unfortunate circumstance, which must come into play on men's judgment in the matter. That seemed to him an additional reason why a strong protest should be entered against the course the right hon. Gentleman was taking.

*MR. GIBSON BOWLES (Lynn Regis) said, the First Lord of the Treasury had made a moving appeal to his Irish supporters, and had received a significant response from the hon. Member for Waterford. He thought the hon. Member was a little sanguine with regard to the Irish Land Bill.

*MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! That has nothing to do with the Amendment before the House.

SIR HENRY CAMPBELL - BANNERMAN (Stirling Burghs) said, he was surprised and disappointed that the right hon. Gentleman did not take more interest in this question, and give a more definite reply to the arguments of his hon. Friend. He entirely corroborated what his hon. Friends had said as to the importance of the Measure of which they were in charge. Its importance was fully recognised on both sides Let him remember that when he had of the House. This was the only Bill the Government in the hollow of his relating to Scotland Scotch Members handwere likely to have an opportunity of discussing this Session. Not a single Bill relating to Scotland had been proposed by the Government. He admitted the force of the argument that the Government could not begin to make exceptions to their Resolution; but it did not apply in the present instance, because the Government had introduced into their Resolution a totally new principle, namely, that they should practically have the power of saying which Measures were to go on and which were not. He would point out, moreover, to the right hon. Gentleman that by his own statement of his intention he had declared that he was going to do so. The right hon. Gentleman had said that if the coming Wednesday was absorbed, as it would be, of course, by the Second Reading of the Rating Bill, private Members would have to be excluded. Next week the same thing would happen. The following week, according to the dispensation of time announced by the Government, the Committee on the *MR. GIBSON BOWLES (continuRating Bill would, of course, extend ing): But I most strongly object-[Order, over Wednesday. It could not, how- order !]-when they are left, as this is, ever, be expected to cover the week with a dispensing power in the hands of after, and in the week after the right the Government.

Mr. Colville.

*MR. GIBSON BOWLES said, he was about to adopt a line of argument which bore distinctly on the Amendment, but he would not pursue it. [Laughter.] If the right hon. Gentleman was going to make conditions as to the way in which he would carry out this Resolution and the order of Bills, any man who had taken part in the business of Opposition would tell him that those who were against the second and third Bills would subject the first to that full, fair, constant, and complete elaboration which on the other side of the House was called Debate and on the Ministerial side was branded as obstruction-[laughter]—with the result that it would eat up all the time of the House. He objected to these Resolutions*MR. SPEAKER: The question in the Amendment is that the 29th of April shall be excepted.

*MR. SPEAKER: There is no ques-, Under their Rules, at present, the tion here of a dispensing power. private Member was entitled to pre["Hear, hear!"] ference according to the fortune of the *MR. GIBSON BOWLES said that if ballot. Private Members had done this Resolution were to be adopted there nothing to warrant their being placed in ought to be no exception to it. the position proposed. They had not MR. HERBERT LEWIS (Flint discussed any proposal of the GovernBills of a farBoroughs) asked the right hon. Gentleman ment at any length. in the Chair whether the Amendment reaching character had been introduced, now before the House would exclude the and yet no Bill had been discussed for Amendment which stood upon the Paper more than a single night on its First Reading. During the last Parliament, on the other hand, there had been conon the state of stant Amendments affairs, and the agricultural question was MR. HERBERT LEWIS said that in raised constantly, and the question of that case, on the ground of sympathy the condition of the unemployed. for the Scotch Members, and because of Nothing of the kind, however, had taken He would the injustice that would be done to place in the present year. Wales, he should vote for the Amend- like to dispose of the Resolution altogether or to limit it to Tuesdays only, but certainly, if they could not obtain "That those words be that, he thought it would be better to

in his name.

*MR. SPEAKER: The Amendment now under discussion will certainly exclude that of the hon. Gentleman.

ment.

Question put: there inserted."

The House divided. : -Ayes, 151; Noes, 312.-(Division List, No. 117.)

These

sacrifice their Wednesdays altogether. He did not believe that there was a chance of these two Wednesdays which the Government had referred to being utilised. What chance was there of the MR. T. LOUGH (Islington, W.) Second Reading Debate on the Rating moved as an Amendment to omit the Bill being concluded on the following word any, and to insert the word night? What chance was there of a "every." The Resolution, as it was general understanding being arrived at drawn would enable the Government to that the Debate on the Second Reading pick and choose as to what subject of the Education Bill should be disposed should be brought forward on Wednes- of in three days? The Debate on the days, and what Member should be Second Reading of the Home Rule Bill favoured, and that he thought was an lasted for three or four weeks. entire revolution as far as the rights of Second Reading discussions were useful, private Members were concerned. The inasmuch as they stimulated discussion right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of outside in the country. He begged to the Treasury had said earlier in the move the Amendment. evening that he looked *SIR JOSEPH PEASE himself as upon the guardian of the interests of the Barnard Castle) seconded the AmendHouse; but in his opinion the right hon. ment. He thought the Motion, as it Gentleman was not the guardian of the stood would place a most invidious power interests of the private Members of the of selection in the hands of the GovernHouse. He hoped private Members on ment in regard to the favoured Wednesboth sides of the House would consider days. Many of them took very strong the matter seriously before they allowed views as to the gravity of the two printhe far-reaching principle embodied in cipal Government Bills that were before the Resolution as it stood at present to the House, and wished to discuss them be carried. On other occasions, when quietly and fairly, and to take the judgthe Government found themselves in an ment of the House upon them would exigency, they had had Wednesdays occupy a good deal of time. He hoped taken from them, but it was never pro- the Government would not persist in the posed that the Government should decide whether a Wednesday should be taken or not, and what private business should be selected for a Wednesday.

(Durham,

proposal to keep in their hands all power of selection in regard to private business, which would, he thought, be obnoxious. He would point out also that to accept