In the case of the not could see their way to give them proper the two services. expenses, the fishermen would be more torpedo-boat destroyers, they had the willing to take action and would thus men in the Navy discharging their form a detective police at sea all night ordinary national duties which they and everywhere, and would do the work were paid to discharge, but in the case much more efficiently than could be of the "catch trawlers there was a sugdone by a gunboat here and there. gestion of police about it, which was Another point which was worthy of most distasteful to the officers and men attention was that the trawlers were employed on board such ships, and the now accused of covering up their distinc- result was that whatever Government tive marks. He would suggest that was in power were prevented from vessels of that class should be forced, as unduly increasing the extent of the could be seen sometimes on Scandinavian operations necessary to prevent illegal and Danish steamers, to have their names trawling. The Admiralty had done or numbers very large right in the mid- fairly well in the past by the Scotch dle of the hull, so that those at a dis- Fishery Board in regard to this matter, tance could readily see them. He would and they had had more assistance from urge Her Majesty's Government to take them during the last two years than had these matters into their consideration. been previously given. With regard to THE LORD ADVOCATE said, that the old Jackal, he remembered the Government had no reason whatever many years ago that that vessel was to complain of the discussion, inasmuch merely an old small paddle-wheel as the two matters chiefly dealt with steamer, whereas the new Jackal had were both matters of high interest. One grown into a fine screw vessel of 700 of them, however, had already been horse-power and of 750 tons burden. dealt with in the earlier part of the That was the Jackal of the present day, evening in such a way as to discharge and he thought it was a little more him from saying anything more about up-to-date than the hon. Gentleman it. The hon. Member for East Aber- opposite supposed it was. The proper deenshire began by asking first, whether the existing regulations were sufficient and secondly, whether they were adequately enforced. As to sufficiency, the only observation his hon. Friend had appreciated what the hon. Gentleman made was that he thought there ought opposite had said with regard to the to be some extension of the limit of extension of the three-mile limit, but trawling waters. Everyone would desire the hon. Gentleman must see that with to see this question settled favourably to the means at present at their disposal it the Scotch line fishermen, but the situa- would be extremely difficult to carry out tion would become one of extreme diffi- such a proposal. It must be recollected culty and gravity if the Government that it was only a very few months ago were unduly pressed with regard to it. that the Board had powers conferred As to the question as to how far their upon them by Parliament to take the obligations, such as they were, had been steps necessary to prevent illegal adequately enforced, all he could say was trawling. At that moment he was not that the Government had been following prepared to give any further promise on the lines of policy which had been this subject. Observations had been adopted by their predecessors in office. made that night with reference to the No one knew better than hon. Members desirability of operating against illegal opposite the difficulty of enforcing the trawlers in other directions. He conlaw with regard to trawling in Scotch fessed that he had very considerable waters. In the first place, the ships sympathy with the proposal to increase the used for the enforcement of the law were penalties in cases where there were not built for that purpose. repeated convictions, and also with that It was all form of "catch trawler" did not yet exist, but he hoped that eventually such a class of vessel would be at the disposal of the Scotch Fishery Board. He very well to say that the catch which suggested the possibility of trawlers" ought to be of the same dividing a portion of the fines among description as the torpedo-boat des- the line fishermen who gave the infortroyers, but the truth was that there mation that led to those convictions. were any amount of difference between He did not complain of the action of the though it might seem at first sight-was really the cheapest form of legislation. But when that was said, the fact remained that a great deal of expense was incurred, especially in lawyers' fees; and while he could not shadow forth any scheme by which the Departments might perform some of this work-in fact, he doubted whether it was feasible-he could assure hon. Members that their suggestions in that direction would receive the careful attention of the Secretary for Scotland. *MR. MCLEOD pointed out that the Lord Advocate had said nothing in regard to the reduced surplus of the Herring Brand fees. He thought the time had come when the Committee should insist upon getting the total sum received in fees for the purpose of harbour extension. fishermen in that respect. They might, of that sort Parliament had delegated its perhaps, do a little more than they were' own powers to those local authorities in the habit of doing in the way of which brought in Provisional Orders, so collecting information, but to ask the that the Provisional Order—expensive line fishermen to take the trouble to collect that information without any reward and to throw upon them all the trouble of running in the illegal trawlers would be unjust. He had merely thrown out these observations for consideration, but he would give his full attention to the question and would not forget the points which had been brought under his notice. Turning to the subject of piers and harbours, he did not think that an amalgamation of the two sources from which the funds for the construction and maintenance of piers and harbours would have much effect in improving them. The hon. Member had said that only some £3,000 was applied for the purpose, but he could assure the hon. Gentleman that that sum by no means represented the whole of the money appropriated to those constructions. During the last two years a large amount of work had been done on the coasts of the Highlands and Islands. Works of a larger nature had been carried out at a cost of £37,600, and of a minor nature at a cost of £26,000. There had been instances, undoubtedly, in regard to which it was difficult to say that the money had been well spent, but on the whole he thought the money for harbours had been spent to the best advantage. The hon. Member for Kincardineshire suggested that harbours ought to be selected with some regard, first, to the size of fishing boats, which were now being built with a larger draught; secondly, in connection with railway accommodation; and thirdly, to geographical considerations, in order to give service to the largest area. Those were useful and sensible suggestions. The most important of the three was that in regard to railway facilities. There was not much good in bringing fish to the shore unless it could be forwarded to market, and he could point to the Light Railways Bill of the Government as evidence of their desire to provide the fishermen with increased railway accommodation in that direction. He sympathised with the complaint of the hon. Member for Banffshire in regard to the cost of Provisional Orders. It must, however, be remembered that in matters Lord Advocate. THE LORD ADVOCATE said, he had inadvertently neglected to refer to the Herring Brand fees. In 1889 or 1890 a Committee sat and investigated this extremely complex question in the fullest possible manner, and they made representations which resulted in the charges-of which complaint had been made-being fixed as essential. It should be remembered, also, that, rightly or wrongly, the Herring Brand fees had been pledged to certain trusts, and that all that was available for the purposes of harbour extension was the surplus. For instance, in 1892 the Eyemouth Harbour Trustees received £10,000, and the Herring Brand fees were assigned by the Secretary for Scotland to the Loan Commissioners as a security for the repayment of the grant. He hoped that explanation would be accepted, and that the Committee would consider that the matter had been sufficiently dicussed. MR. J. M. WHITE (Forfar) said, that it was of great importance that railway stations should be near to harbours. He was interested in one harbour, which at the present time was in a very incomplete and unsatisfactory state, although a considerable sum of money had been spent on it. It was three or four miles from a railway. The fishermen from the neighbouring villages had contributed a sum towards its com pletion. The state of the harbours was the fisheries, trawling must be kept a public scandal. There was not nearly within proper limits, and carried on the accommodation that there used to be, under effective supervision; and for and yet the fishermen were compelled to these purposes money was required. pay dues for a harbour which was worse From a business point of view and in than useless. the interests of the great centres of population, the proper course would be to divide the Committee, and he strongly recommended that course as the only way of obtaining immediate attention to their requirements. DR. FARQUHARSON said he wished to say a word in appreciation of the increase of the Vote for scientific investigation, the results of which would be felt in the future if not immediately. He was glad to see that the Vote had been raised to £970. THE LORD ADVOCATE said there had been a transfer from that Vote to another Vote, which had resulted in an apparent augmentation larger than the very slight increase. DR. FARQUHARSON said he was sorry to hear that was so. He thought that it was only right that someone should bear testimony to the work done by the Fishery Board. Inquiries had been made all over the Continent, and a great deal had been done; but the fishermen, like the farmers, were carrying on their work with a little impatience as to scientific methods, but in the end it would be found that these scientific methods would do an enormous amount of good. He was sorry to find that this increase of £970 was not an increase in reality. He did not think that money could be better expended. MR. A. CROSS said, that as an hon. Member had pointed out that no Scotch Member for a great Scotch constituency had intruded in the Debate, he would say that, as representing one of the great centres of population in Scotland, there were two questions in which he was intimately concerned. These were the questions of trawling and of harbours. Of course, the right hon. Gentleman on the Treasury Bench was always extremely pleasant, but he had heard this Debate on the Scotch Estimates more than once, and he must tell the right hon. Gentleman that he had answered admirably in the language of successive Administrations. They wished that trawling should be carried on in a business-like style. The Fishery Board had a number of vessels of an antiquated style, and their attempt to deal with trawling he must characterise as absurd and antiquated. He wished to ask whether it was the intention of the Fishery Board to put down trawling. The right hon. Gentleman spoke of what he hoped to live to see, and as they wished him long life, it might be 30 or 40 years before they saw any change with regard to trawling. The right hon. Gentleman admitted the force of all their arguments, and gave them lavish promises such as in the past had yielded no satisfaction. If the construction of harbours was to be en- MR. R. B. HALDANE said, before couraged, more money must be provided; the hon. Gentleman considered the quesbut the Vote was being reduced this tions put to him, he should like to year. He submitted that the proper follow up the remarks of the hon. Memcourse would be to press the Front ber opposite. Before the late GovernBench a little more firmly. There was ment went out of office, it was admitted a strong opinion that the west coast that the south-east coast of Scotland was fisheries had not received the attention in an unsatisfactory state as regasds the which was their due. There was no protection given to the fisheries. There reason why there should not be as was only a sailing vessel to look after valuable fisheries on the west coast as the steam trawlers. Nothing could be on the east coast. He did not believe got out of the Scotch Office. He had that much would be achieved unless been engaged in some negotiations and more pressure was put on the Depart- after these it had been intimated that ment in order to obtain something more the Admiralty were prepared to take than kind words and lavish promises. some steps. They did not pledge themThey might well begrudge the spending selves to what they would provide as to of £1,000 upon elaborate scientific inves- policing the south-east coast. These tigation when so much was needed for negotiations were still in the Scotch more practical purposes. To develop Office, and what he should like to know duction of £100, and I ask for a vote to be taken on that. *THE CHAIRMAN: No Amendment had been put from the Chair when the Question was put. *MR. WEIR: No, Sir, because the Leader of the House was whether they were being continued *THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member with particular reference to the south-did not make any Motion. east coast? The thing amounted simply *MR. WEIR: Pardon me, Sir, I did. to enforcing the laws of the land, and [Cries of "Yes" and "Order!"] I said, whether the Admiralty were taking any at the opening of my observations, that steps to carry out the understanding I rose for the purpose of moving a rearrived at. They hoped and believed that they would lead to some efficient result, and that the duties would be satisfactorily discharged. If the Government would not undertake it-and he should have thought that would have been the speediest way to carry out the intentions of their predecessors in officethey must take some steps. It was said there was a great difficulty about a gunboat, but he had satisfied himself that that was not so. The entertainments given were most hospitable, and the business was found to be a pleasant one. He trusted the First Lord of the Admiralty would find no objection to undertaking those duties; or, if so, that someone else would be put in a position to discharge them. Until the Govern *THE CHAIRMAN: Order, order! Question put accordingly: The Committee divided :---Ayes, 140; Noes, 56.-(Division List, No. 116.) Resolutions to be reported upon Monday next; Committee to sit again upon Monday next. ment provided the Scotch Fishery Board PUBLIC OFFICES (SITE) [EXPENSES.] with some adequate means it would be well that they should carry out that which certainly it was understood should be carried out. tries. Considered in Committee. [Mr. J. W. LOWTHER in the Chair.] Motion made, and Question again proposed, "That it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys to be provided by Parliament, of any expenses incurred by the Commissioners of Works under the provisions of any Act of the present Session for the acquisition of a Site for Public Offices in Westminster, and for purposes connected therewith. *MR. WEIR urged that Her Majesty's ships, instead of doing little at Chatham, Portsmouth, or in the Mediterranean, should be off the coast of the Highlands of Scotland protecting the fishing indusAt the time Lord Spencer was at the Admiralty a gunboat was placed at the disposal of the Fishery Board, but it never went round the west coast at all. THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREA--(Mr. Hanbury.) IURY rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put : MR. T. LOUGH (Islington, W.) asked that some explanation should be given of the Vote. *THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF Question put, "That the Question be WORKS (Mr. AKERS-DOUGLAS, Kent, now put." The Committee divided:-Ayes, 136; Noes, 64.-(Division List, No. 115.) The House was cleared for a Division on the Question that the Vote be agreed to. *MR. WEIR, seated and with his hat on, said he desired to raise a point of order. He had moved the reduction of the Vote by £100, and he claimed to have that reduction put from the Chair. Mr. R. B. Haldane. St. Augustine's) said, this was a money Resolution securing the payment of money for the purchase of the Westminster site for public offices. The Bill was read a Second time the other night and this was simply a Resolution authorising the expenditure of the money which was provided by an Act of last Session. MR. LLOYD-GEORGE (Carnarvon Boroughs) said, that last night they were asked to vote £300,000 without any explanation, and now they were asked to vote a sum of which they had had no previous knowledge. There was nothing commercial community, and, unless the on the Paper to indicate what the Government could give the assurance amount was. asked for, he should feel compelled to proceed with the discussion at once. He desired to raise the question of the facilities given by the Telephone Com And, it being Midnight, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House. Committee report Progress; to sit pany. again upon Monday next. MILITARY LANDS ACT (1892) Mr. J. COLVILLE (Lanark, N.E.) moved the Adjournment of the Debate. [Cheers.] MR. HERBERT LEWIS (Flint Boroughs) seconded the Motion. THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EX Second Reading deferred till Monday CHEQUER hoped the Motion would next. MILITARY MANOEUVRES BILL. not be pressed. There would be an amp e opportunity of discussion on the Second Reading of the Bill. This Reso Committee deferred till Monday next. lution was merely necessary to the intro TELEGRAPHS (ADVANCES). Resolution reported ; "That it is expedient to authorise the issue, duction of the Bill. MR. W. ALLEN (Newcastle-underLyme): Will the right hon. Gentleman give a definite pledge that the Bill will come on before 12 o'clock ? THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXout of the Consolidated Fund, of a sum not ex- CHEQUER: No, Sir; I cannot proceeding £300,000, for the purposes of the Tele-mise that. graph Acts, and to authorise the Treasury to borrow such sums by means of terminable annuities, payable out of moneys to be provided by Parliament for the service of the Post Office, and, if those moneys are insufficient, out of the Consolidated Fund.” Resolution read a Second time :Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution." MR. DALZIEL: I am sorry that the Leadership has got to such a state— [Ministerial cries of "Order!"]—that we should be receiving pledges privately which are repudiated publicly. [Opposi tion cries, and persistent Ministerial cries of "Withdraw!"] I shall not withdraw. The hon. Member for the Blackfriars Division of Glasgow had assured MR. DALZIEL said, that the House him that he had obtained a definite was entitled to a detailed statement as pledge from the Secretary to the Treasury, to the way in which the money was or some other representative of the Govbeing spent. It was impossible to tell ernment [Ministerial laughter] — that, how much of the public money the if this Resolution were allowed to go National Telephone Company had got. through, the Bill should be brought on If this Report were agreed to, would the before 12 o'clock. ["Hear, hear!" from right hon. Gentleman promise that the Mr. PROVAND.] The hon. Member Bill should be brought on at a time for the Camlachie Division agreed when the subject could be properly dis- with that statement. ["No!" from cussed? [Cheers.] MR. HANBURY said, that he could not give a guarantee of that kind. No portion of this money would go to the National Telephone Company, which had already received about £450,000 out of the £1,000,000 provided in the former Bill. The rest of that sum had gone to purchase wires for the main trunk lines. The additional sum asked for was in order to complete the purchase of the wires. MR. A. CROSS said, that the topic was of the greatest importance to the Mr. A. CROSS and Ministerial laughter.] |