He travelling expenses were connected with to secure the benefits which they bethe Scotch Office, which did not come lieved to have arisen from the closing of under the head of the Inspector of Con- that area for a number of years. stabulary. With regard to the pay- could cite a higher authority still-the ments to the office keeper, reference to a Secretary for Scotland-who, in addressnote in the Estimates explained it. The ing a deputation of trawlers in Edinamount of £600 for the salary of the burgh two weeks ago, said that he himclerk in charge of accounts, and the self had no doubt whatever from his own £150 for inquiries, were the estimates experience, that in-shore fisheries had only, and any part of the money which thus been, in some cases at any rate, was not wanted would fall into the Trea- absolutely destroyed. No one, in fact, sury Office. As to why a maximum of who had investigated the subject, could £600 should be fixed in the two cases, doubt that the continuous action of one clerk beginning at one minimum and steam trawlers over certain areas was the other at a different minimum, the detrimental, if not destructive, to the explanation was, he believed, perfectly fisheries. He wished to ask whether simple. The gentleman who got £450 the present regulations laid down by the as a minimum was a senior clerk, while Fishery Board were sufficient, and in the the gentleman who got £250 as a mini- second place whether the regulations mum was a clerk in charge of the accounts. He appealed to the Committee to now allow the Vote to pass. that had been laid down were duly observed. With regard to the sufficiency of the regulations, he could only say that there was an increasing opinion among those interested in the question, MR. CALDWELL did not admit that the answer of the Lord Advocate was satisfactory, and if such a state of that those restrictions and regulations affairs continued when the Estimates came on in another year, and no better explanations were given, steps would be taken to move a reduction of the Vote. Vote agreed to. Motion made and Question proposed -: "That a sum not exceeding £16,666 be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1897, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Fishery Board in Scotland and for Grants in Aid of Piers or Quays." not were not sufficient. There was merely a desire for an international extension of the territorial limit for fishing purposes, but a very strong desire was expressed by fishermen in Scotland, and also in England and abroad, that for fishery purposes, the Board, or whatever other department had authority in fishery matters, should have power over a wider limit than three miles, for the protection of fisheries. What they wanted to secure was that the in-shore waters should be properly protected for the prosecution of the line-fishing industry. The Lord Advocate, no doubt, had read the account of the deputation *MR. BUCHANAN remarked that he of fishermen at Edinburgh a fortnight wished to say a few words upon this ago, and he would there see that repreVote, on the subjects of the Regulations sentations were made from all parts of affecting trawling, the sea police, and the coasts of Scotland strongly urging on harbours. It had been stated in the the Secretary of State and the Fishery course of the evening that there had been Boards, not only the desirability, but the certain international negotiations with a necessity of due protection of their inview to a general extension of the terri- terests; and of a considerable extension torial limit for fishery purposes. One of the territorial limit for fishery purhon. Member had suggested that it had poses. Whether that limit was made not by any means been proved, or gener- 13 miles, six miles, or any other disally accepted, that trawling was detri- tance, above the present limit, there mental to line-fishing and fishery in could be no doubt that the three mile general. Against that he would quote limit was not sufficient. What they the action of the trawlers themselves. wanted to do was to secure that A couple of months ago, when the the line-fishermen, whose possibiliMoray Firth was opened, the trawlers ties and powers of getting out to sea rushed in helter skelter from Aberdeen were more limited than those of the Lord Advocate. trawlers, should be protected in the in- | supplied other ships. They had had the shore waters. With regard to the Niger. She was a swift ship, and on second point, as to whether the present occasions had done good work. But provisions and regulations were enforced what had been the Niger's performances and observed, he might say that the Lord lately? She was sent up to the east Advocate had himself admitted early in coast of Scotland in November last. She the evening that they were not ade- arrived in Aberdeen harbour on the 19th quately enforced. As to the way in of that month, and started from there which the regulations were enforced, on the 25th. She returned on the 2nd the Secretary for Scotland told the of December, and spent 12 days in hardeputation which waited upon him that bour. She went on duty again and reduring the past year there had come up turned on the 23rd. From the 23rd of 10 cases where trawlers had been con- December to the 21st of January she was victed of going within the three mile in harbour. In all, of the 109 days she limit without lights, and he drew the was detailed off for sea police duties on conclusion that if there had been 10 the north east of Scotland she had been cases in which convictions had been 79 days in Aberdeen harbour, during 10 obtained, there must have been many of which she was in dry dock. That other cases. Hon. Gentlemen must was not an adequate discharge of sea know there were constant complaints of police work, particularly at a time when infringements of the regulations. There feeling was greatly stirred owing to the was no part of the United Kingdom opening of the Moray Firth. He did not which suffered more from this grievance blame the officers of the ship. He was than the east coast near Aberdeen. aware they did not like the duties they There were more infringements there of had to perform. They did the duty to the Fishery Board's regulations than any- the best of their ability, but it was to where else. It had been constantly urged them irksome work. What he now on Government after Government that wished to impress on the Government the provision in this Vote for sea police was that it was their duty to see that was quite inadequate. In 1893 a Committee inquired into the question, and the present First Lord of the Admiralty strongly advocated the dispatch by the Admiralty of vessels to be put under the control of the Fishery Board or the Secretary for Scotland. The Committee reported in favour of such a plan. Nothing, however, had been done, and apparently there was very little prospect of anything being done. An extra vessel, the new Vigilant, was bought three years ago by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bridgeton (Sir G. Trevelyan) when he was Secretary for Scotland. She was a second-hand yacht, and did not steam fast enough to enable her to discharge efficiently police duties. She was still totally incapable of performing the duties required of her on the west coast. But what about the east coast, where the fisheries were much more valuable and important? There they had practically only got the old Jackal. She was not very seaworthy, and was totally inadequate for police duties. Time after time the Government had had impressed upon them the necessity of providing other ships, and from time to time the Admiralty had the regulations passed under Statute by the Fishery Board were adequately enforced, and that the Board had proper means of enforcing their regulations. The question had been trifled with for so long that it was really time some proper and satisfactory solution was arrived at. Either the Admiralty should provide proper and quick vessels, or such vessels should be supplied by the Treasury. In this matter he particularly appealed to the present Government, as the present Secretary for Scotland had undoubtedly led the people to believe he was exceedingly anxious to see their grievances were remedied. There was only one other subject he desired to refer to-namely, that of harbours. Three thousand pounds was totally inadequate for the construction of fishery harbours only, let alone commercial harbours and harbours of refuge. On page 20 of the last Report of the Fishery Board, the Lord Advocate would see that the number of cases reserved for the consideration of the Board was 13, and that the total sum asked for was £52,000. The Board had cut down their demands to the very lowest point, so that it was perfectly clear that a grant of £3,000 was utterly inadequate. It was very necessary that hope that their grievances would be the question of harbour construction dealt with. As to the sea police, the should be put up n some substantial and, complaints were more against the system permanent foundation. No real good than the way in which the work was was done by a frittering away of small done. The remedy proposed was that sums of money on a scheme here and a instead of detailing ships of the Royal scheme there. The Board ought to be Navy for the work, there should be a able to embark on a practical and well-regular police service. The boats should considered scheme that would meet the be built like trawlers, though swifter; most necessitous circumstances on the they should be under the orders of the coast of Scotland. That was what was Fishery Board, and there should be on wanted by the fishermen, and that board of each a certain number of pracwould be the most economic and satis- tical fishermen extensively interested in factory way of settling the question. stopping these illegalities. The question *MR. J. W. CROMBIE (Kincardine- of expense ought not to stand in the shire) said, that the illegal trawling was way of a proper enforcement of the law. admitted to be a public scandal. As to The Secretary for Scotland had comthe inefficiency of the sea police, that was plained that the fishermen themselves not exaggerated. The movements of did not exert themselves in helping to the vessels were published in the news-stop the trawling. But it was not wise papers, so that the trawlers knew exactly to encourage these men to be too active where the vessels would be at any time. or to take the law into their own hands. The easiest solution of the question When the trawlers, on the strength of would be to shift the punishment from the supposed flaw in the Order, rushed the owners to the masters of the trawlers; helter-skelter into the Moray Firth, because the former willingly paid the doing immense damage, the difficulty was fine for so profitable a business. The to prevent the fishermen from interferScotch Fishery Board administered very ing. As a matter of fact, they did rebadly the money in their hands. A main absolutely quiet under great provogreat deal of it was frittered away, and cation. Of even greater importance was many deserving places were neglected. the question of harbour accommodation. It was utter waste to give money for a The hon. Member for Kincardineshire harbour not properly served by railways. had found fault with the method in Then the harbour ought to be made which the present small grant had been large enough to take the large boats re-administered. quired by modern fishing and the geographical situation was a most important point. A great many harbours had received grants where none of these conditions were fulfilled; and in one case at least-Stonehaven-not a penny had been spent, though all the conditions were fulfilled. Only a small sum was needed; the harbour was served by two railways, and the geographical position was so good, that the neighbouring fishing villages had actually petitioned the Fishery Board to give a grant to Stonehaven instead of to themselves. SIR W. WEDDERBURN said that the fishermen were extremely grateful for the promptitude, energy, and success which the Secretary for Scotland had dealt with the troublesome crisis in the Moray Firth. Further, the way in which the right hon. Gentleman had listened to the complaints of the fishermen's deputation to Edinburgh gave Mr. Buchanan. Of course, the Fishery Board could not please everybody, and he could only say for his own constituency that the Fishery Board and its chairman appeared to have done their best to meet the wishes of the people. But there was one important point as regarded the way in which the grant was applied. The opinion of the Fishery Board had been that the preservation of life and property, not the provision of fishery harbours of refuge, was a national duty, and ought to be done from the Treasury. They drew a distinction between commercial harbours and harbours to preserve life and property. construct real harbours of refuge with the large boats now used for fishery purposes was quite beyond the means of the fishermen themselves, and therefore they called on the Government to provide the money. But to The Lord Advocate appeared to be under a little mistake in thinking that the Select Committee of 1884 did - "Your Committee believe that grants of public money may to a limited extent be made in aid of works which would provide purely not distinctly recognise this national There was no reason why there should obligation. Now, the Committee, in not be printed forms and other assisttheir Report, said ance given to persons who wished a Provisional Order, so as to reduce the expenditure to something quite nominal. He had spoken to the Chairman of the Fishery Board on the subject, and he believed this Committee felt this waste of money very much. The sums were collected by the fishermen, with very great trouble, in sixpences and halfcrowns, and he trusted that the Lord Advocate would give what assistance he could to the carrying through of a matter of this kind. It would be an encouragement to the fishermen in collecting their subscriptions if they knew that all the money collected would be employed in the improvement of the harbours. refuge harbours chiefly for fishermen on certain MR. J. PARKER SMITH (Lanarkshire, Partick) referred to an item of £3,000 as grant in aid of piers and quays, and commented on the very unsatisfactory method of having two independent sources of expenditure for this object. All that he asked was a sum of £20,000 to make a safe harbour for the Moray Firth. Another important point which tended to increase the danger was that the boats were much smaller, and if there was any risk of danger they could DR. CLARK could not agree with the be beached. The need, therefore, was suggestions of the hon. Baronet. He much greater, because the value of the was a member of the Committee which property was much larger, and the num- dealt with this subject, and he agreed ber of boats was now greater. As long with the recommendation that the Scotch ago as 1848, Admiral Washington's Fishery Board should have a cruiser for Commission reported that £3,000 was the purpose of doing this police work. quite inadequate. In 1857 a Special The old boats, like the Lively, the Commission, presided over by Mr. James Jackal, and the Garland were absolutely Wilson, recommended that £9,300 useless to go after steam trawlers steamshould be given; and Admiral Wash- ing 15 and 16 knots. He reluctantly ington's Commission £10,000. This agreed to the experiment being tried. point had been unceasingly pressed ever It had been carried out, and the Scotch since by the Fishery Board and all those Office had purchased a fine steam yacht. concerned with the industry. Every It was at first proposed to the Treasury Government which failed to provide a to spend £10,000, but it being a Scotch remedy, incurred a very grave responsi- proposal, of course, the Treasury refused, bility, because, when any storm arose, and screwed the amount down to £5,000. it invariably happened that a great But the new cruiser was worse than the disaster ensued, as well as loss of life. old Jackal, and it was now compulsory It was a very small amount which was to keep it in Oban Bay, through fear asked for in order to give comparative that the crew should be drowned if it safety to a large district. The hon. ventured out in rough weather. Member for East Aberdeenshire referred matter of fact, the new cruiser was not to the great cost of Provisional Orders, worth fivepence as far as work was coneven when unopposed, for building a cerned. The intention surely was that harbour and carrying it through the the Admiralty should do all this police House. He held in his hand an ac- work. It possessed the proper forces count numbering 14 folios of 6s. 8d.'s to do it. The Admiralty were now and 13s. 4d.'s from the Parliamentary building torpedo destroyers; and he agent, and another account from the suggested that here was a class of local solicitor, amounting to £45 for work on which torpedo destroyers carrying through purely formal business. could be employed, inasmuch as in time As a He of war they would be occupied in | £8,021, but of that amount £5,267 was watching foreign cruisers and trawlers. taken away for expenses. If the He hoped the Lord Advocate would development of the telegraph was necesunderstand that upon this question the sary it ought not to come off the Brand right hon. Member for South Aberdeen did fee. He thought it was very mean and not represent the views held by all the contemptible, but it was just the kind other Members of that House who repre- of thing the Treasury had always done sented Scotch fishery districts. The only for Scotland. There was also a decrease exceptional views entertained on this of £500 in the Vote for Scientific Invessubject was held by the Member who tigation and Marine Superintendence, represented the one district where the though he had understood that what was trawling poacher lived and thrived. taken from one Department was to be The trawlers were again destroying the handed over to the other. fishery beds and carrying away the lines *MR. J. E. GORDON (Elgin and and nets of the fishermen, with the Nairn) thought the Government were to result that these honest men had lost be congratulated on the fact that the thousands of pounds. It was to prevent whole night had been spent on Scotch this that an efficient police system was business without any great grievance wanted. When complaints were made from North of the Tweed arising in any to the Scotch officials those who made of the great centres of population. them were referred to the Admiralty, represented a district where they had a and the Admiralty, when representa- few grievances, but he believed that in tions were made to it, laid the blame on the hands of the Government they were the Scotch Office. The result was that easily capable of relief in the course of nothing was done, and he hoped that the next few years. They felt on his this game of battledore and shuttlecock side of the House that they were between the Departments would cease. addressing willing ears, and that their They ought to use half-a-score torpedo affairs were in safe hands. They had to catchers, 24 or 25-knot boats, that could thank the Government for the ready way easily run round any trawler. When in which they came to their aid when these police boats were to go out in the trawlers recently invaded the Moray search of trawlers the fact ought not to Firth. Speaking on behalf of the line be disclosed beforehand. At present it fishermen, he said that all they asked was generally known when they were for was protection in their great ingoing out. As it had become manifest dustry. This last winter for the first that mere fines did not prevent trawlers time the fishermen were really satisfied from breaking the law, he agreed that with their fishing, but when they saw there ought to be a power to imprison as the trawlers invading their fishing grounds well as to fine. As to the maintenance they were naturally apprehensive. of harbours, that was one of the burdens They, therefore, asked that they should taken over by the Parliament of Great be protected all along the coast, and Britain at the time of the Union, and allowed to develop the fishery for their that the sum devoted to the purpose had own advantage and for the advantage of not been increased did not speak well for the country; and that the trawlers who the generosity of the Treasury. The were new comers and had steam at their surplus Herring Brand fees, which were disposal should spend an extra hourallocated to the purposes of piers and and-a-half in proceeding to sea and not harbours, increased in 1895 by £700 or fish in the inner banks. With regard £800, and yet Scotland was to have to the policing of the sea, he would like apparently £1,000 less for her harbours. to see some of the swiftest vessels the As far as the Brand fee was concerned, Admiralty could spare put upon the there was a very serious grievance. This work, but he would point out to the tax was put upon Scotch herrings, and Lord Advocate that there was another the proceeds of it were not given to method by which the law could be fishing purposes. There was a large carried into effect. The fishermen now sum in respect of the past Brand fee, complained that when they had a case in which they ought to get, but never have Court the expenses allowed them were got, and probably never would get. The inadequate, and their loss of time very fees collected in 1895 amounted to serious. Therefore, if the Law Officers Dr. Clark. |