MR. MUNRO FERGUSON (Leith Burghs) said that, with regard to trawling, the answer of the right hon. Gentleman had not been quite satisfactory. He did not gather from the right hon. Gentleman whether the negotiations with Foreign Powers regarding a 13-mile limit were to be undertaken at all. THE LORD ADVOCATE: What I said was that, as far as I know, they had not yet been undertaken. Public Health, and he did not gather that there were not advantages in formfrom hon. Members who had spoken, ing lines in other parts of the country, that they found any fault with the law and it might be that light railways or the statement made in which it was might be constructed in some of the administered. On the contrary, he districts which the hon. Member had gathered that these laws were a little in his mind, but he would be a little too stringent, and that they required too sanguine if he thought that the the pulling down of houses. He would Treasury would, immediately after passnot go further into the matter lest he ing a substantial amount for one of should transgress the ruling of the the best Highland lines, proceed to Chair. undertake another railway equally imMR. BUCHANAN rose to Order. portant. As to the harbour of PortnaHe did not understand the Chairman's gool, that subject had been raised withruling to imply that they were unable out notice, but he would undertake to to discuss grievances to remedy which specially look after the matter. might possibly entail legislation. *THE CHAIRMAN: I do not want to repeat my ruling. It is open to any hon. Gentlemen to introduce a Bill to remedy grievances. A Minister cannot by simply introducing a Bill make it become an Act. An Act is an Act of Parliament and not of a Minister and hon. Members cannot criticise the action of a Minister because he introduces or does not introduce a Bill. There are other opportunities of doing that. The MR. MUNRO FERGUSON said, opportunities of Supply were never that he had expected that these negomeant to be used for that purpose tiations would have been undertaken except in order to bring home to the and vigorously pursued; if not, he Department the failure to administer an hoped that the right hon. Gentleman Act of Parliament. would press on the Scotch Office the THE LORD ADVOCATE resuming, desirability of considering an altersaid that he was disappointed that native system, because in the case an hon. Member opposite had thought of the Moray Firth there would that there had been a failure of be stringent closing interest on the part of the Scotch An alternative system was proposed in a Office with regard to the line fishermen. Bill introduced in another place by Lord That was a matter not of legislation Tweedmouth; but Lord Salisbury carried against either the line or the trawl an Amendment, by which the Bill was fishing industry, and he need only point considerably modified, on the direct out the causes from which the difficulty ground that negotiations were necessary arose. It arose in connection with the with Foreign Powers before a larger Moray Firth, and the action which was limit could be adopted; and it was undertaken was properly taken and resulted stood from that that those negotiations in a vindication of the bye-laws which would be undertaken. The trawling had been challenged; given loyalty question might be the question in Aberon the part of the trawlers in the deen and one or two other centres; but observance of the law, he did not believe undoubtedly the great question in Scotthey would have much more difficulty in land was the line-fishing question, and that direction. With regard to the Ulla- those who followed the industry would pool Railway, it was not yet a realised be disappointed by the statement of the fact. The Government had chosen one Lord Advocate. line, and a Resolution regarding it was only the other day on the Order Paper. The line to Mallaig was likely, he hoped, to prove a great advantage and boon to the district it served. He did not say of the area. DR. FARQUHARSON said the question of house accommodation was a very serious, and might become a very threatening, question. He represented a part of Aberdeenshire in which the houses were very bad, and in which the people and, as it often happened during the consuffered in consequence. But, in justice sideration of Bills that points arose on to the landlords-a class to which he which it might be necessary to make belonged-he should say that they were compromises, the absence of the Secretary placed in a position of great difficulty, for Scotland from the House of Commons and were not altogether to blame. The rendered it impossible for Scotch Memsanitary inspectors, too, were doing their bers to bring the influence of their arguwork with skill and energy and resource; ments to bear upon him. The other but he thought that it would be impos- night the House had an illustration of sible to get the unsanitary houses into a the advantage of having such a Member proper state through the agency of the of the Government in the House of local authorities. The local authorities Commons. A Bill of an Irish Member, were doing good work gradually, and which came on after 12 o'clock, was they were resisting the temptation-blocked by a Member on the other side which was a great one, indeed-of of the House; but the Chief Secretary running the small crofts into large for Ireland advised that the block should holdings, and thus abolishing the small holdings of which they were so proud in the North of Scotland. He thought that if some financial assistance could be given to the landlords-who were really trying to do their best to put their houses in order a great difficulty would be removed. MR. JAMES DALY (Monaghan, S.) drew attention to the deportation of paupers from Scotland to Ireland. He thought it was a monstrous thing that paupers, after spending 40 or 50 years in Scotland, should be deported to Ireland, to end their days in Irish workhouses, a burden on ratepayers to whom they had never been of any assistance. *THE CHAIRMAN: I do not think that question can be raised on this Vote. It would be more in order on the Vote for the Poor Law Board of Scotland. be withdrawn, and, as a consequence, the Bill was allowed to be passed. He had introduced the Law Agents (Scotland) Bill, which had received the assent of the late Government and the present Government, and the assent of every Scotch Member in the House; and yet it could not pass through the House because an English Member chose to block it, and the Secretary for Scotland was not in the House to ask his Friend not to proceed with his opposition. Then there was the question of the right of fishermen to use the foreshore. Fishermen had the right, not only by Common Law, but by the Statute, to the use of one hundred yards of the foreshore for mending their nets and other work of the kind, and it was the duty of the Secretary for Scotland to see that the right was not interfered with by the landed proprietors. The question MR. DALY said, he of course did not of the tenure by which some fishermen want to contest that ruling, but he had held their houses also came under the understood that almost every grievance purview of the Secretary for Scotland. could be discussed on this Vote. He These men built their houses, but they would raise the question on the Poor Law had no title to them, and were liable to be Vote, and would only say now that the evicted. He had also to complain of the people of Ireland felt it a great grievance. method by which the police of Scotland MR. CALDWELL said it was difficult were being turned more and more every to find any grievance which might not year into a military force. What was be said to be removable by legislation, wanted in the case of a police force was and therefore not entitled to be discussed not a military force, but a civilian force in Committee of Supply. But he thought -men who were known to the people, he would be in order in discussing the who would be able to act for the inconvenience caused to Scotch Members protection of the people, and who in not having the Secretary for Scotland would have the people at their backs in the House of Commons. The duties in a time of riot. It was impossible of the Secretary for Scotland were not for the police force of the country merely to administer the public Depart to act effectively if it had not the ments of Scotland of which he was the public feeling at its back. There was head, but also to introduce in Parliament a great difference between the police and steer through Parliament the whole force in Scotland and that in London, of the legislation required for Scotland; and the reason was that in London the Dr. Farquharson. police did not act towards the public as every second year, and the result was if they were military, but as civilians. that when they were brought on day Consequently in London the police were duty their appearance was not all that looked upon as the protectors of the could be desired. The contention was people's rights. In Scotland, the system that the men should have a new uniform of military drill which was in vogue was every year, and that no force should be being pushed on so that the police were certified as efficient which did not give becoming similar in their methods to the uniform and clothing at least once a Irish constabulary. The police should year. He thought it was of great imbe a civilian force, and should be kept portance that the police force should all in touch with public sentiment. It was be trained to a proper ambulance drill. pointed out that sheriff officers were em- This was especially necessary in the case ployed in criminal prosecutions of the of country districts, and every facility police in a number of instances, instead ought to be given for this purpose. He of the detective officers properly attached had no doubt the men themselves would to the Department. Another matter willingly undergo the requisite study and referred to in the Report was the desira- examination to enable them to acquire bility of a Police Gazette for the infor- so useful a qualification. In these days mation of the police in Scotland, which of telegraphs and telephones the police was necessary for the efficiency of the system of communication ought to be police administration. It was of no use thoroughly efficient. In Glasgow there for the Chief Constable to make recom- were a number of signal cabins conmendations in his report to the Secretary nected with the central office, so that for Scotland if nothing was to take place, communications might be made almost and therefore it was their duty to ask instantaneous from every part of Glasthe Government what they intended to gow and from the outskirts. In the do in regard to these matters. The large districts these stations should be establishment of a Police Gazette was spread as much as possible. It had also not a matter which required legislation, been pointed out that where the men it was a matter between the Secretary had a considerable distance to go to for Scotland and the Treasury. Another their beats they ought to be taken there point was the question of receipt stamps. by vans. Another thing that was reIt seemed that in the case of some commended was that the men should be counties the policemen had to give a instructed as regarded their duties, and receipt for their salaries, and had to pro- that there should be a practical examinavide the stamps for those receipts. It tion now and again to see how far each might be thought that it was a small man understood the duties appertaining matter, but surely, if the receipts were to a policeman. Another point was in required, the stamps might be supplied by regard to the closing of public-houses in the Treasury. Another point was the stop- Scotland. That was a matter which page of the pay of the police when on could hardly fail to be of considersick leave. The policemen were prac-able interest to the Government tically engaged for their whole lifetime, The hour for closing public-houses in until they got a superannuation allow- Scotland was 11 o'clock, but a discreance, and this deduction therefore ought tionary power to close earlier was given not, he thought, to be made. He con- to the authorities except in the five tended that the allowance should be larger boroughs. This discretionary given, not for an inordinate period of power had been exercised in some insick leave, but for a reasonable time stances with such beneficial results in when the case was certified by the sur- the diminution of crime and the imgeon. When a man was sick he had proved behaviour of the people, that it extra expenses, and therefore needed the became a question whether the Governmoney more than when he was in health. ment would extend those discretionary They wanted discretionary powers to powers. There were a few policemen be given to the Chief Constable who were employed and paid by coal to allow pay where he thought the and mineral owners, and complaints circumstances demanded it. In the were made that they were employed in case of some of the police on night duty extraneous duties, such as factoring the they were only given a new uniform once property they were supposed to guard. 4 G VOL. XXXIX. [FOURTH SERIES.] Another allegation was that these officers | He had not heard of one instance of a were used to serve ejectment notices and sheriff's officer being employed in criminal the like. investigation, and if a case was laid THE LORD ADVOCATE said, he before him in which it was alleged there had answered a question on the subject, had been any excess or lack of zeal, he and had been waiting for the hon. Mem- should be happy to investigate it. He ber to furnish him with particulars. was entitled to something more than a MR. CALDWELL said, there was a statement that a complaint had been misunderstanding, for he had been wait-made in the report of a Chief Constable. ing for the Lord Advocate to get the As to the complaint that the pay of the particulars. At any rate, it was felt police was stopped for sickness or absence that these private policemen, although for a certain period, this really was due under the Chief Constable, were not as to obviate the distressful alternative of free to act impartially, only they were dismissal; otherwise the pension funds independent members of the consta- would be in an insolvent condition. The bulary. They occupied a dubious employment of police by coal owners was position, and were sometimes tempted to authorised by express statutory provibe overawed by those in whose private sions; and any complaints should be interests they were acting. When a made to the local authority, the Chief Constable went to the trouble of Joint Standing Committee. making an elaborate report on a matter hon. Member had raised two of this kind it ought to receive attention. culties. One he had dealt with; the Such a report was made in 1885, and other, owing, apparently, to some misthere had been time for the Government understanding, he had not had an opporto obtain and consider the facts. He tunity of investigating, but if the hon. should be glad to know to what extent Member would supply him now with inthey had done so. formation as to these particular police acting as house factors, he would see whether there was anything in the circumstances which called for the interference of the Department. THE LORD ADVOCATE said, he would notice one or two of the more important matters the hon. Member had mentioned in the many administrative details he had gone into. He did not know how far certain remarks of the hon. Member were intended to reflect on the whole body of police, or how far they were limited to the police of one locality; but, as regarded the forces with which he had been brought into contact, the imputations were absolutely unfounded. The diffi leave the matter where it was for the MR. CALDWELL said, he should Lord Advocate to deal with. There SIR MARK STEWART said, the hon. Member had referred to the clothing not being renewed every year. was an inspection every year and it was MR. CALDWELL said, he had made the duty of the County Council to see the statements in an address which he that what was right was done. He had had delivered to constables in Glasgow. never heard of an instance of a grumble THE LORD ADVOCATE said, that of this sort. The men generally prethe hon. Member's remarks really meant sented a smart appearance. He must that the police were being drilled and protest against the assumption that the organised until they were becoming police in Scotland were not all that they military and uncivil, and that, in fact, should be in the way of civility. He they were being too well drilled and had a long experience, and he knew that organised. It might be that there were faults, but complaints of this kind would not have the smallest weight with the Committee. He would not discuss the question raised as to the military or civil character of the force, but it had always been the desire of successive Governments to keep the police force strictly to civil duties, and there was not the smallest foundation for the fears the hon. Member professed to entertain. Mr. Caldwell. many would bear him out in this with regard to the policemen of the whole of Scotland, excepting Lanarkshire and Glasgow, for which he could not speak. ["Hear, hear!"] Of course, he could not speak for their perfect civility. *MR. W. JOHNSTON (Belfast, S.) said, he had frequent occasion to be in Glasgow, and he had always the pleasure of receiving great politeness from the police, when he made an inquiry. MR. CALDWELL denied that he had *MR. WEIR: I have called attention said anything about civility. What he to it for years and I never get any inhad said was, that the military forma- formation. tion and discipline were detrimental to the police as a citizen force. He did not say that the police in Scotland were uncivil, but they were far more civil in London. THE LORD ADVOCATE said, the hon. Member merely asked him why the Inspector of Constabulary received £800 a year. If a more specific question were put to him he would endeavour to answer it. *MR. WEIR said, this official might be worth £1,800 a year, but he wanted to know what the duties of the office were. THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR SCOTLAND said the Inspector was a roving official, who reported to the Crown Office. *MR. WEIR was glad to think that the right hon. Gentleman had not broken down in health under the pressure of his work, seeing that he had not the assistance of the Secretary for Scotland. They ought to have the Secretary for Scotland there. They all knew what was the result with regard to the Under Secretary for War having his Chief elsewhere. MR. CALDWELL called attention to He answered Questions as far as his the salary of the clerk in charge of the knowledge went, but that did not amount accounts and statistics who began at to much. £200 a year, and whose salary rose by *THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Mem-annual increments to £600. At the ber is not in order in discussing the War Office Estimates. *MR. WEIR: I was only pointing out that the Secretary for Scotland was not here. The Postmaster General is not here, and the Secretary for War is not here. The hon. Member complained that the miners had been brutally treated by the police and that his complaints were not attended to. He would next refer to roads in the Highlands. *THE CHAIRMAN: The proper place for discussing that is when we reach Vote 3 in Clause 7. *MR. WEIR said, then as to telegraph extension to the Highlands. This was of very great importance to the fisheries. In many places fishing could not be carried on without the wire. *THE CHAIRMAN: That also is a question which properly comes on on Vote 3, Clause 7. *MR. WEIR: May I refer to mussel cultivation? *THE CHAIRMAN: That will properly arise on the Fisheries Vote. *MR. WEIR said, then he should move a reduction on the Lord Advocate's salary by £100, so that he might get some information as to the Inspector of the Constabulary. He begged to move *THE CHAIRMAN said it was not necessary to move a reduction to ask the Question or to call attention to the matter. present moment he was getting the maximum salary. The senior clerk who, presumably, was a man of a superior stamp, as he commenced at the higher salary of £450, only rose to the same salary £600. The salary of the clerk in charge of accounts rose from £200 to £600 merely by lapse of time, and not because of any increase in the duties. This was not in the public interest. The office keeper had a minimum salary of £120, rising to £150. But this official an amount received at that moment Dover House clean was thrown on the *MR. WEIR said, the £600 for travelling expenses included £150 for an office. How on earth, if the official was travelling about, could he want an office. THE LORD ADVOCATE said that he was not prepared to answer this question, but his impression was, that the |