1583

Budget

{COMMONS}

infamous system. Why should they wait | financial oppression of Ireland. Long for the Report of the Commission before ago she did reap a profit, but circumthey did something to remedy the evil? stances had changed, and to-day the This had been described as a Landlords' balance was on the wrong side. £200,000 Budget. He would consider for a moment a year was probably lost by England in the question of the financial relations of her transactions with Ireland, regard the two countries from the landlords' being paid to the cost of maintaining the In 1860 there was a point of view. He suggested that the Army in Ireland. landlords would do well if they united balance of £5,500,000 which Great with the representatives of the people of Britain got out of Ireland, but since Ireland in asking that this question of that time the Irish civil expenditure had Ireland's taxation should be favourably gone up, and now the balance was only considered by that House. Governments £1,750,000, as against which a paywere constantly appealing to the land- ment of £2,000,000 was made for the lords to reduce their rents, and during Army. The fact was that the Irish the last 40 years £2,000,000 had been people paid large taxes, and that the taken off the rent-roll of Ireland through money was all fuddled away. Therefore, the action of Parliament. But what had from the English taxpayer's point of Governments done? For every £1 view there was good reason why this taken off rent, they had imposed £2 in question should be considered. taxes. Thus £2,000,000 had come off the rents and £4,000,000 had gone on to the taxes. The Land Bill of the Government would have no meaning if it did not reduce further the landlords' receipts, but ought they not to ask the Government to reduce taxation at the same time? Old taxes which were too high were being continued and four new taxes had been laid on Ireland in the last four years-the tax on beer and the tax on whisky as indirect taxation, and the Death Duties and increased Income The taxes were Tax as direct taxation.

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future years, unless a change was made, the English taxpayer would probably to contribute £1,000,000 have £2,000,000 a year towards Irish taxaIt was all very well to tax a tion. country as long as one got something out of it, but it was no use to go on doing so when the goose was dead that laid the golden egg. Why not discontinue these burdens, which were the curse of the people of Ireland, and which did no good to this country? It would probably be said that good was done in Ireland by the expenditure constantly increasing, and the popula- there of part of the money raised in tion was constantly diminishing. From taxes. the English taxpayer's point of view, it on was also desirable that the taxation of He did not Ireland should be reduced. suggest that Ireland should pay less and As the that England should pay more. English representative of tituency, he should think it monstrous that his constituents should have to pay anything to relieve Ireland from payment. Ireland ought to pay her own way in the world, and she would be willing and able to do so if a proper system of Government, suitable to the needs of the country, were established. England reaped no profit out of her Mr. T. Lough.

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Well, while 4s. 3d. were spent education per head in Ireland, 15s. 4d. per head were spent on the armed That, surely, was too little on forces. education and too much on the military. As for levying a tax of 15s. 4d. on the unfortunate people for the maintenance of soldiers and police in their country, he did not think anything more tyrannous or corrupt was ever done in a civilised country. He had not mentioned these figures without giving them the closest study. They were not calculations of his own, but they were given in evidence before the Royal Commission. He would close by asking whether it was not fair to ask the right hon. Gentleman to

take into consideration the situation of His hon. Friend the Member for Islington the unfortunate country. The contrast had suggested new sources of revenue would grow greater every year, and he which were still untouched, and he agreed appealed to the Government-and he with him that, if the necessity for further recognised that the present Government expenditure increased, it would be neceswere no worse than previous Govern- sary to tap new sources of revenue. The ments of either Party-to consider this right hon. Gentleman the Member for matter in accordance with the nobler Thanet had trotted out his familiar and broader traditions of English finance, hobby-horse of Protection, but he would and to do justice to the people of Ireland. not follow him in that. His object in *MR. A. K. LOYD (Berks, Abingdon) rising was to call attention to a parsaid he wished to call attention to two ticular point in connection with the points in connection with the incidence Land Tax. He was very glad the of the Death Duties. The first case was Chancellor of the Exchequer had escaped that of an estate being left to a widow the toils of two distinct classes of absolutely. The present state of the law tempters on this question. Some were was that she paid Estate Duty as any in favour of abolishing the tax altoother person. To his mind that was a great gether, and others were in favour of injustice, because, in the normal condition handing it over to the County Councils. of things, an estate would probably pay He was glad the right hon. Gentleman duty only once in a generation. The had not given in to either. If the right average disparity of age between husband hon. Gentleman had abolished the tax it and wife he took at five or six years, and, would have involved a grave injustice to that being so, the estate had to pay a those who had redeemed the tax. If, severe duty at an interval only about on the other hand, he had handed one-sixth or one-fifth of the normal the tax over to the County Councils interval. Might not she therefore be he would not have met the grievexcused from paying more than, say, ance of the small payers of the tax. one-sixth or one-fifth of the normal The special grievance of the small payer Estate Duty? He was sure the of Land Tax was that, owing to the fall right hon. Gentleman would be con- in prices of agricultural produce which sulting the interest of every house- affected large estates, the fixed quota hold in the country if he could make which the district had to pay fell more some alteration in this direction. The heavily upon them. In his opinion, the other case was that of an estate left by landlords would obtain the greater will or settlement to the widow for life, benefit of the reduction of the Land Tax and remainder to the children. In this from 4s. to 1s. He should like to know case the widow paid Estate Duty, but no from the right hon. Gentleman the further duty was payable on her death. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the He suggested that it might be possible to reduction of the Land Tax from 4s. to postpone the payment of the duty during 1s. would be automatic. the life of the widow. The result would be that the estate would be left intact during the period when the children were being brought up and educated. He begged to submit these two points to the consideration of the right hon. Gentleman. [Hear, hear!"]

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, that the reduction would be automatic in the quota payable by the parish.

MR. STEVENSON said, that that would facilitate matters greatly. He had always taken a keen interest in this MR. F. S. STEVENSON (Suffolk, subject, which he had shown by asking Eye) contended that the provision with in 1893 that there should be a revision regard to the Land Tax would certainly of the Land Tax all over the country. operate beneficially for the poorer clergy. He was very glad that the right hon. While, of course, he sympathised with Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchetheir position owing to the fall in tithes, quer had made this concession. With it was impossible to deny that the loss regard to the other subject which affected the tithe-payers had incurred, owing to the agricultural interest, namely, the the fall in the price of agricultural pro- payment by the State of half the rates duce, had been greater in proportion. on agricultural land, he was entirely in VOL. XXXIX. [FOURTH SERIES.]

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Although he was not a land

favour of the scheme, because it was the tax. only way-though, perhaps, a round- owner to any great extent, was not the about and cumbrous way-by which possessor of any valuable heirlooms, and personal property could be made to pay had no life interest to come back to him, its share of the rates. It must not be he might be allowed to say that in forgotten that the small tradesmen in taking off the taxes in the way the small country towns had suffered greatly Chancellor of the Exchequer had done, from agricultural depression owing to an he had exercised a very wise discretion, increase in the burden of local rates, and and had disposed of his surplus in the he was sorry that they were not to have best possible manner. The right hon. a share in the relief afforded by the Gentleman the Member for Wolvergrants in aid. He should have thought hampton had made a very strong that it was possible to have extended the point with regard to the fact that the benefits of these grants in aid not only Supplementary Estimates of last year to the large landowners and farmers, but had not been included in the Budget or to the smaller classes who had suffered in the Estimates for the present year. during the late and present depression When the Chancellor of the Exchequer of agriculture. framed his Financial Statement for the MR. C. T. MURDOCH (Reading) year, he depended to a great extent on said, that he rose for the purpose of the Estimates submitted to him by the making a few observations on the heads of the Spending Departments, who peculiarly interesting speech of the right in their turn based their Estimates, not hon. Gentleman the Member for only on what was required by the DeWolverhampton. The right hon. Gen- partments for the year to come, but also tleman had addressed himself largely to on what had been spent in the previous the subject of the Income Tax, and he year, including the Supplementary Estirather made an attack on the right hon. mates. He therefore held that in the Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exche- Budget these Supplementary Estimates quer because, having a surplus of one were themselves considered. The right million and three-quarters at his dis- hon. Gentleman expressed the hope that posal, he had not taken off a portion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not the Income Tax. The right hon. Gen-been purchasing Consols in the market tleman the Member for Wolverhampton, at their present high price. If he however, had been obliged to confess remembered rightly, the Chancellor of that even with a surplus of a million and the Exchequer had made a great point three-quarters the right hon. Gentleman in his Budget Statement of having paid the Chancellor of the Exchequer would off a considerable amount of the Floating not be able to take off 1d. in the pound Debt. That in itself was a considerable of the tax. The right hon. Gentleman, reduction in the indebtedness of the therefore, suggested that the Chancellor nation. In reality, that Floating Debt of the Exchequer should have taken off represented to a great extent what was a halfpenny, but at the same time formerly the old Three per Cents. At admitted that the question was not a the time when the present First Lord of very urgent one. He, however, could not help thinking that to take off merely a halfpenny of the Income Tax would not be a very satisfactory course of proceeding, because it would be extremely difficult as a matter of calculation, and would not afford any really substantial relief to those who paid the Mr. F. S. Stevenson.

the Admiralty, as Chancellor of the Exchequer, converted the Three per Cents., there were a certain number of holders who would not come into the scheme; and the right hon. Gentleman, instead of issuing new stock in substitution of the amount which those holders would not receive, allowed the Floating

Debt to be represented by that amount, encouraged to come in received such a something like £35,000,000, which had rate of interest as the Government in its gradually been paid off, and which, in banking capacity could not afford to give his opinion, had during the past year its depositors, and it was a monstrous been laid considerable hold of. That injustice that the bankers of this country was really the very best way of paying should be competed with by the Governoff the National Debt. The right hon. ment, who were trusting to the taxpayer Gentleman did not go into the market to make up the deficit in the interest and buy Consols at their exorbitant which they could not pay on their prices, but he continued to buy off the deposits. He did not believe that the indebtedness of the nation in the very sources of taxation were by any means best way that could possibly be adopted. exhausted, and he could not believe that In his humble opinion, the high price men of the consummate ability of the to which Consols had been run up was First Lord of the Admiralty, the present due, not only to the purchases on Chancellor of the Exchequer, or the account of the amount in the Post Office right hon. Gentleman the Member for Savings Banks, but also because Consols Monmouthshire, would not have many had become a luxury, and because most means at their disposal for increasing banks thought it necessary to hold a the revenue if it were necessary. In large amount in Consols which they did financial circles in the country there not part with, which did not come into was a growing feeling that direct taxathe market, but which appeared as orna- tion had gone almost as far as it should mental items in the balance sheets, and go at the present time, and that the which consequently added to the scarcity attention of Chancellors of the Exof Consols. In regard to the question chequer should be now turned to inof deposits in the Post Office Savings direct taxation. He would remind the Banks, he desired to call attention to a hon. Member for Islington that the practice which was now being pursued, principal source of taxation in Ireland and which, in his opinion, amounted to was from the duty upon whisky made in fraud. There were several instances of Ireland, but drunk in Great Britainwell-to-do persons who held large [Nationalist cries of "No!"--and that amounts in those Savings Banks by therefore the taxes which had been comdepositing in several places under differ- plained of as unjust were borne by ent names, and who thereby obtained Englishmen, and others abroad, as well that comparatively high rate of interest as by those living in Ireland. He which was intended by the Government believed that the agricultural classes in as an encouragement to thrift amongst Ireland were in many respects much the poorer classes. That was a matter better off than the similar classes in which, he thought, should have the Great Britain. attention of the Government. ["Hear, MR. SYDNEY BUXTON (Tower hear!" As a banker himself, he ob- Hamlets, Poplar) said, the most striking jected to the Government competing and, he thought, the most saddening with the bankers of the country, espe- part of the whole discussion on the cially as the Government did so upon Budget was in reference to the enormous bad financial terms. If any banking increase of annual expenditure. He institution took money on deposit upon thought the Committee was hardly a higher rate of interest than it could aware that the round figures given them obtain itself, it would soon find in the Budget Speech did not, as comthat that was not only a risky pared with previous years, really rebut a fatal class of business. present the national expenditure of this The depositors whom the Government country. No less than five or six

millions of our annual expenditure had statement of the Chancellor of the Exbeen transferred from our national to our chequer that his Estimates of expendilocal accounts, and the 100 millions of ture did cover all the proposals of the the Budget meant something like 107 Government with regard to the Army millions. He trusted that the right hon. and Navy; and he trusted the right hon. Gentleman would see fit to alter his Gentleman would be justified in what he account and bring it more in accordance had said with regard to both North with previous accounts. An item was Africa and South Africa, and that there put down on the revenue side which was would be no demand for panic stricken really a new source of expenditure. One expenditure in either. The First Lord of the great defects in arriving at any of the Admiralty had given a clear exconclusion on the expenditure of revenue position as to the position of the Navy; was the extraordinary discrepancy but unfortunately it had been found between the public accounts of the by experience that as soon as the exTreasury and the other Departments.

penditure on one programme began to *THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EX- diminish, a new programme involved an CHEQUER said, what the hon. Mem- increase of expenditure. The Estimates ber alluded to was no doubt that in all of the revenue seemed to be taken in a previous accounts that part of the Death most cautious spirit, and he believed that Duties and of the revenue from beer and the revenue would be larger than the spirits which went to the local taxation Estimate. The advantage of the Income account had not been included in the Tax was that it could be raised and Budget Estimate for the year. He lowered as required, and it was well that followed that precedent precisely in it remained an integral portion of our making up the official figures of his National finance. But, as the yield of Budget Estimate this year by deducting a penny in the pound was now two the sum which was to go towards the local taxation account in future years from the Budget Estimate of Revenue.

millions, it was possible to contemplate making changes either way by a halfpenny in the pound, and he did not see that any difficulties of calculation need stand in the way. No one had objected to the course that had been pursued in

MR. BUXTON said they had no desire to question any expenditure or revenue, it was only a question of the confusion of accounts, and he thought gradually diminishing indirect and that what the right hon. Gentleman had increasing direct taxation until they said confirmed his view that here was a were brought to almost equal proportions, distinct item of expenditure which was and looking round our whole financial put down on the revenue side in our position he did not see where it would national account. That certainly was be possible to impose any additional not the way in which any business man indirect taxation on any articles of conwould keep his ordinary accounts. sumption. There was no article of Questions of such great importance as common consumption that would stand education of course required attention, a great amount of taxation without and, looking to the state of Europe at diminishing the consumption of it the present moment, he supposed they so as to affect our whole home could not, unfortunately, regret our and international trade. Although it expenditure on the Navy; but the worst might be regarded as rather heterodox on of it was that successive Chancellors of himself, he must say he concurred in one the Exchequer had all expressed remark made by the right hon. Member their great regret at this expenditure, for Thanet; he thought the abolition of but always produced increased Estimates. the registration duty on corn was in Satisfaction had been expressed with the some sense a misfortune, but it was Mr. Sydney Buxton.