must have recourse to some other source Board for the relief of the agricultural of revenue. That source, he unhesi- interest to the extent of 1 million were tatingly maintained, must be indirect proposals to ask the non-agricultural taxation. ["Hear, hear!"] The sum taxpayer to contribute something toof two million pounds, which a penny in wards an industry in the prosperity of the pound on the Income Tax produced, which he had so great an interest. He might be obtained by the restoration of would point out that by the imposition the small 1s. registration fee upon corn of a reasonable duty upon food stuffs the of all kinds, which had been most relief of agriculture would be immediate, foolishly abandoned by a previous Chan- and the whole community would share cellor of the Exchequer. He was aware in the advantages which would thereby that in times past any suggestion that a be secured. If they were told that the recourse should be had to indirect taxa- people of this country would never stand tion had always been scouted as a reac- a tax on the articles necessary for their tionary and impossible proposal. But daily consumption, he would reply that at a time in the future when more money at the present moment in this Budget it might be wanted, did they intend to was proposed to levy between four and draw on the Income Tax, or to have five millions of taxation in the shape of recourse to the wise principle of indirect Tea Duty, and duties on coffee, chicory, taxation which had been so wantonly preserved fruits, and so forth. He abandoned? He had not hesitated to cordially agreed with what was said as suggest corn, because when the sugges- to the necessity of obtaining from all tion of indirect taxation was made it classes of the communtiy a fair proporwas said by some that if this was tion of the taxes required. The Chanadopted it might lead to an imposition of cellor of the Exchequer had pointed out a tax on corn. He therefore put corn that it was a dangerous policy to rely first, corn of all kinds-barley, wheat, upon taxation to which the majority of oats, etc. That was a source to which the people did not contribute. It was they ought to look for an augmentation for that reason he had not associated of the revenue. In taxing barley they with the demand for the abolition of the would not be taxing what they were tea duties. The bulk of our revenue told in clap-trap phraseology was the ought to be derived from all classes of food of the people. Ground flour ought the community, so that all might be in the interests of the community to be equally interested in sound Government. subjected to an impost duty on entering As matters now stood, we derived too this country, for the importation of much of our indirect revenue in a ground flour had added considerably to manner which too little affected the the want of employment in the country. daily consumption of the people. He [Cries of "No, no!"] He ventured to would transfer some duties to imported say that the introduction into this coun- articles such as were produced in this try of millions of hundredweights of country. He would not take any more ground flour had obviously displaced a money out of the pockets of consumers, vast amount of labour which had been but he would seek to benefit producers. engaged in the milling industry. It The idea that the taxation of corn might be a matter of opinion whether involved pressure upon the people would there had been compensating advantages, not bear argument. When cross-road but the diminution of employment could orators spoke of starvation prices in the not be gainsaid. There was another earlier years of the century, they forgot source ready for the Chancellor of the to say that those high prices were due to Exchequer any time he wanted eight or the difficulty of obtaining supplies in nine millions. He would point out that war time. That state of things might 87 millions' worth of foreign manufac- exist again, if we became dependent tured goods was brought into this upon contraband cargoes for our main country, which, if subjected to the food supplies. If the Chancellor of the moderate average impost of only 10 per Exchequer wished to devise a fresh cent. would produce eight or nine financial policy, let him consult the millions sterling per annum. The pro- Secretary of State for the Colonies rather posals of his right hon. Friend the than any other colleague, for he had just President of the Local Government delivered an admirable speech indicating

Mr. James Lowther.

the direction of a new policy in pre- came up to the level of the German ferential arrangements with our colonies. people they would be doing more for The idea of Free Trade within the true economy. Empire was impracticable, seeing that so many colonial governments depended upon indirect taxes, and we must contemplate their difficulties as well as our own. On that account he looked forward to a natural revision of our one-sided and untenable fiscal system.

*MR. DISRAELI (Cheshire, Altrincham) said, he happened to represent a part of one county and to live in another county, and he could inform the hon. Member that the giving of the two millions had been hailed with the greatest delight. They had, perhaps, an SIR JOHN BRUNNER (Cheshire, exaggerated idea of what the Chancellor Northwich) said, the Chancellor of the of the Exchequer did for them-["hear, Exchequer had warned us that our hear!"]-but they had that feeling of expenditure was in many particulars encouragement which, he thought, would automatic in its growth. There were do more for them than anything that the two fields in which this automatic growth Chancellor of the Exchequer could give could be stopped if the policy of Her them. They had had a very interesting Majesty's Government were to be speech from the Member for Thanet, adopted. There had been a continually with the old-fashioned ring, and which growing loss on the Post Office Savings appealed to his own heart. [Laughter. Banks. The interest we were able to It was curious that after exactly 50 obtain for money was continually dimin-years after the repeal of the Corn Duties ishing, while the deposits were in- they should be considering the fiscal creasing. If we determined that this policy of the country, whether it had loss should be reduced by diminishing been a failure or a success. the interest allowed, we might have the satisfaction of knowing that we had a little more money to give to other classes of the community than the depositors. The Chancellor of

They found the Chancellor of the Exchequer, after his most eloquent speech, confronted by his right hon. Friend asking whether our present system of financial policy could the Exchequer be maintained. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had had a fat year. He wondered whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer had ever considered where he would have been if he had not had a fat year. If, in the next two or three years and he hoped his right hon. Friend would continue to be Chancellor of the Exchequer he found the expenditure increased and the income not so, where was he to go to for increased taxation, and how was he to get it? He had given them an interesting summary showing that the increase in the population in 10 years was 20 per cent., and the increase in the expenditure 80 per cent. That had been entirely borne by the Income Tax and the Stamp Duties. Those were facts plain to all, and he thought it would be an advantage to broaden the basis of taxation. That, in his opinion, was one of the questions which the Chancellor of the Exchequer would have to meet, and which he hoped he would consider in the next Budget. He thought in a time like this, when they had not been for many years so near war, and certainly when there were rumours of war, it was a wonderful spectacle, showing the soundness of the

doubted whether they belonged to the working-classes, because he found deposits of £50 and £100 a year; but the experience offered by a savings bank for the men employed by his own firm showed that such deposits were not uncommon with the best of working-men in the North of England. It might be right to reduce the interest allowed to Post Office Savings Bank depositors, but to do so would run the risk of discouraging thrift just where the encouragement was valuable. Then it was said we might limit the amount to be spent on education out of Imperial funds as well as out of local funds; but this was certainly not one of the ways in which this country ought to secure money. A Report from our Consul at Wurtemburg stated that one per cent. of the population passed through a course of agricultural instruction. If that proportion obtained in Cheshire, the number of pupils receiving such instruction would be 7,500, whereas the actual number was 230. They were giving over two millions, but he was convinced that if they persevered in their efforts to educate their people until they

national character and trade that the expenditure and revenue of the Governmillions had come rolling into the ment of the day. It seemed to him that pockets of the Chancellor of the Exche- the present Chancellor of the Exchequer quer without any diminution. He thought that must be very satisfactory. He wished next to refer to the food supply in connection with the national defence. He did not agree with Lord Wolseley on this point. If other countries were not willing to send their corn, it did not matter how large their Army or Navy might be. They could not compel them to send it.

THE CHAIRMAN ruled that the hon. Member could only refer to the food supply from a financial point.

was not justified in handing over a surplus of nearly six millions-supplementary estimates of nearly £2,000,000 and the surplus £4,210,000-in the way he had done. It appeared to him that the money had been stolen from the liquidation of the National Debt. It was an old constitutional tradition that the money should be devoted to the liquidation of the Debt, and nothing could justify, in his view, the departure from that rule. This was a dangerous precedent to set. Instead of devoting it to the liquidation *MR. DISRAELI said, the Chancellor of the National Debt in times of peace, of the Exchequer referred to the increase any Chancellor of the Exchequer who in the volume of trade, but what they might subsequently possess a surplus should like to know was whether their would be tempted to hand it over for trade was increasing in proportion to the relief of taxation, or any other that of other foreign European countries. purpose he might think fit. The approThe increase there was much larger than priation of the money had been justified on here, and this he attributed to the the ground that the necessities of the system of bounties, which were under- Navy required it. He believed that mining some of the flourishing industries the policy produced a constantly inhere. As to the relief given to the creasing Army and Navy expenditure, agricultural population, he believed the and would not be necessary if they took benefit would be felt throughout the proper steps to promote an international country and filter through the small arrangement for the gradual reduction villages. Other trades might have them but the land never would, and it was the duty of the Government to tend and foster it as much as possible. ["Hear, hear!"]

He

of expenditure of this character. should like to criticise the Budget from another point of view. A large proportion of the Probate Duty, a few years ago, was devoted to the relief of local *MR. JOSEPH A. PEASE (North- taxation Since then a large portion umberland, Tyneside) said, the right hon. of the Estate Duty was devoted to that Gentleman (Mr. J. Lowther) always same object. He held that both these had a panacea for every evil, namely, ways of raising money were matters conprotective duty upon the food supply to nected with Imperial Revenue, and, the people; but for himself he did not though paid to local taxation accounts, believe in raising the price of the they were nothing less than Imperial exnecessaries of life. He held that part penditure. For the year ending 1895-6, of the surplus ought to be devoted to the expenditure, as communicated by a removing the duties from articles such Parliamentary Paper recently presented He should like, in his humble way, to congratulate the Government on having produced, at all events, a simple Budget which they could understand. When the last Tory Government was in power they had Budgets introduced which were complicated by Barrack and Naval Defence Acts, mortgaging Suez Canal shares, by charging annuities on £7,310,000. the Consolidated Fund, and by Imperial ture of the country was going to be subventions-all making it difficult to £108,000,000 during the current year, comprehend what was proposed. Even and the people of the country ought not expert financiers were unable to explain to be blinded by a figure of £100,000,000 to a popular audience what was the actual on the Balance Sheet presented to the Mr. Disraeli.

as tea.

to the House showed an expenditure of something like £97,764,000. To that ought to have been added £6,634,000, making the expenditure for the past year £105,000,000. For the coming year, 1896-7, the estimated expenditure was £100, 480,000, and the amount to be handed over to local taxation was Therefore, the expendi

House of Commons. The anticipated | £5,000,000, the lower middle £1,000,000, balance was, he understood, to be de- by these contributions to the richer voted partly to education purposes. The portions of the community. It was Chancellor of the Exchequer said that nothing but robbery for the Chancellor £433,000 would be devoted to educa- of the Exchequer to hand over money tional purposes and other contingencies. collected for Imperial purposes to the He himself approved of a certain amount relief of merely one class. He objected of that expenditure going towards the to the system of constantly increased purposes of education. For instance, he Imperial subventions. They promoted thoroughly agreed in the necessity for extravagance. In his own county he abolishing the 17s. 6d. limit, especially had seen the greatest difficulty in the in the poorer schools of the country, expenditure of the money. They had, such as the Roman Catholic Schools, for instance, upwards of £16,000 to where grievous hardship had been felt, spend in the county on technical educaand the people connected with the schools tion, and it was very difficult for the were poor. He believed that ignorance Technical Education Committee to see was more expensive than knowledge, that they got a proper return for that and he did not take any exception to money when they spent it. In every parish the expenditure of money for education, were people who thought they ought to provided it went to promote progress, have a share of the money, whether they and not retard it. But it seemed to him were going to take advantage of the that the greater portion of the £433,000 educational advantages put before them proposed to be spent by the Bill was for or not. The bestowal of money of the the preferential treatment of a certain kind tended to increase the demands class, and would not promote education, made on the Chancellor of the Exchequer but rather retard it. With regard to by different sections of the community the Land Tax, he admitted that real pro-year by year, and it was most difficult perty seemed, under our present system for the Government to resist the appeals to pay rather more than personal pro- made. But the Government were asked perty. If the revision of the Land Tax at the last General Election to relieve the would redress that small grievance he depression of agriculture. The price of would accept it. With regard to the wheat to-day was about 25s. a quarter; relief of local rates, he took the greatest whereas a year ago it was about 20s. exception to the method adopted by his own district agriculture was more the Government. It seemed to him prosperous than almost any other into be nothing else than a barefaced dustry. No farms were left unculticontribution to a class. The principle vated. If anything rents had been inof Imperial subventions was bad. The creasing, and he did not think that, on ratepayers gained at the expense of the whole, the farmer had much to comthe taxpayer. Imperial revenue was plain of. Certainly, rents were well derived from commodities consumed by paid. But in the iron trade and in the us all; therefore, we all contributed to colliery districts wages had gone down, what would be handed over to the rate-there had been no profits for two or three payers for the benefit of that class. The years, and if any industries should re taxes, on the whole, were paid by the ceive relief, it was these rather than the poorer portion of the community, the farmers, who followed a profitable in rates by the richer. Dr. Hunter, the dustry. Farmers would get the benefit cause of whose absence now from the temporarily, but they could not permaHouse must be a matter of regret, proved nently if they held their farms on a in an article in the Contemporary Review yearly lease, for the landlord, either a few months ago, that Imperial sub- by increasing his rents or refusing ventions meant that every occupier below abatements or improvements in times an average rental of £48 was a loser, of depression, would take advantage and above that sum a gainer, and the of this Imperial contribution. The poorer a man was, so much the more did President of the Board of Agriculhe lose by these contributions from ture had expressed sympathy with the Imperial funds, and out of the then agricultural labourer who was the worst £6,000,000 paid to local authorities by paid individual in this country. the Treasury, the poorer classes lost he himself did not see how this Imperial

In

But

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I do. This grant will come out of the Death Duty on personal property.

subvention of £975,000 would help the would find that he could not alter the labourer. But who contributed that? Naval Estimates. He was pleased to It was, to a large extent, contributed by hear the declaration of the Chancellor the labouring classes of this country. of the Exchequer with regard to There were 7,000,000 wage-earners, and Akasoheh, Dongola, and Khartoum. these men who drank the beer and smoked He said the Egyptian Government was the tobacco were largely those who con- making the expedition with their own tributed to the revenue of the State. He troops and at their own cost. He, who did not think the Chancellor of the Ex- looked with distrust on the expedition, chequer would deny that. who believed that it would lead us further than anybody had any idea of at present, was delighted to hear that declaration. They were told originally by the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs that this *MR. PEASE submitted that it came was not an Egyptian, but a British exout of the surplus the Chancellor of the pedition, which would go to Akasheh, Exchequer would have in anticipation then if the heat was too great, would of the revenue of the coming year. He stay there, but if not, would go on to said there was a balance of £1,710,000 Dongola, and he said, in reply to some to deal with. Out of that £443,000 queries addressed to him by the right would go towards education; £200,000 hon. Member for the Forest of Dean that was to go to the relief of the Land Tax; £100,000 for another purpose connected with the Estate Duty, and there would be £975,000 left. That sum was simply the balance out of the total revenue of the country, a large proportion of which came from the working classes of the country, who contributed directly or indirectly to the revenue. Assuming, however, the agricultural labourer would derive benefit from the proposal, it appeared to him that it was proposed to tax 7,000,000 of labourers for the benefit of 1,000,000. He did not believe the agricultural labourer would get a penny of this money. The greater part of it would go into the pockets of the farmers temporarily, but permanently into the pockets of the landlords. For these reasons he objected to the proposals of the Government. ["Hear, hear!"]

he did not wish to publish the plan of campaign beforehand. The right hon. Gentleman, therefore, prepared them for a large expedition to Akasheh, probably to Dongola, and possibly to Khartoum. Again the Colonial Secretary said, “We are doing this in order to show our sympathy with the Italians

,,

THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Gentleman is now discussing the whole question of the expedition up the Nile. So far as it has any financial bearing upon the Budget, it would be in order, but the general policy clearly would not be in order.

*MR. BOWLES bowed to the Chairman's ruling, and observed that he had made the contrast he wished to make with regard to the financial aspect. Since the final and improved policy now announced by the Chancellor of the Ex*MR. GIBSON BOWLES (Lynn Regis) chequer was to be adopted, of course they said, he was alarmed to hear the Chan- might make themselves easy with regard cellor of the Exchequer threaten to in- to the financial results of the expedition. crease the Navy Estimates next year, Had the old policy, as announced by the and he was further concerned when the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs and First Lord of the Admiralty made him- the Secretary for the Colonies, been perself an accessory after the fact to the de-sisted in of making it a British expeclaration. He thought this would have dition, then he thought the effects would to be reconsidered. His belief was that, have been most serious on the finances although the expenditure next year on of this year, and the Chancellor of the the Navy might not be required in the Exchequer would undoubtedly have had same direction, there would be little if to reconsider his Budget. He was glad any possibility of diminution. His only to know there was no possibility of that, consolation with regard to the matter and consequently that they should not was that it would have to be reconsidered be called together in November for a next year, and he strongly suspected Vote on Account for a further advance that the right hon. Gentleman himself in the direction of Khartoum. There was Mr. Joseph A. Pease.