An Asterisk (*) at the commencement of a Speech indicates revision vy the siemour. HOUSE O F LORDS. Thursday, 26th March 1896. ARCHDEACONRY OF CORNWALL A Bill to amend the law as to the PRIVATE AND PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILLS. Ordered, That family in the way of stimulants on the Sunday. But what was proposed by this Bill was simply to limit the hours of sale to one hour in the middle of the day on Sundays. It was originally proposed to allow another hour for opening in the evening, and he should be quite prepared to assent to such condition being inserted in the Bill if in Committee it should be thought desirable. He did not wish that the working man should be deprived of the opportunity of obtaining his glass of beer on the Sunday, the only day of the week on which he was able to dine with his wife and family, a privilege which would be denied to him if the public houses were closed altogether. The present law was, generally speaking, that after being opened a certain time in the afternoon, the public houses were again opened from six o'clock to 10 or 11 o'clock, according to the district. The houses being kept open so late presented a terrible temptation to the class of persons referred to, for he believed they were tempted to spend their evenings in the public house on Sundays more than on any other day. On other days they were tired with their work, or there were other places of amusement open to them. From his 22 years of experience in London as a parish clergyman, he had come to the conclusion that there was really more HOURS OF SALE) BILL [H.L.]. drunkenness on the evening of the SunTHE ARCHBISHOP OF YORK, in day than on any other day of the week, Moving the Second Reading of this Bill, and that the evils of intemperance were said, the Measure was so clear in its greater then than at other times, for this object, and so simple in its provisions, reason among others, that in consequence that it was unnecessary for him to detain of drinking, a large number of men were their Lordships long in explaining it. unable to resume work on the Monday, The desire of the promoters of the Bill and thus inconvenienced their employers was to regulate and restrict the hours of as well as brought loss, and perhaps sale in public houses on Sundays. He distress, to their families. ["Hear, was glad to think that this was not a hear!"] It might be said that the Party question. He was quite sure that public house was the only place to which on both sides of the House there were many working men could go, because many who understood and deeply de- their homes were miserable and uncomplored the evils of intemperance. He fortable, but on this point he thought was not aware that any Measure quite there was reason for congratulation in similar in its purpose to this had ever the fact that a steady improvement was been brought before their Lordships. going on throughout the country, slowly There had been more than one Bill but surely, in relation to the dwellings introduced proposing to entirely close of the poor, and it was not too much to public houses on the Lord's day. He hope that even further legislation might had never felt that he could, with a be undertaken in this direction. quiet conscience, support such a Measure even admitting the statement about the as that so long as he was able to provide misery and uncomfortable character of what he wanted for himself and his the home, was it not a shame that any VOL. XXXIX. [FOURTH SERIES.] INTOXICATING LIQUORS (SUNDAY I But THE BISHOP OF MANCHESTER said, there were numbers of weak-minded persons who needed protection, but there were tens of thousands of respectable working men who demanded that they should have the right to purchase for themselves that beverage to which they were accustomed on the Lord's day. That was a beverage which, if it be not drunk fresh, was scarcely drinkable. If, therefore, persons had to purchase at noon all they desired to consume on Sunday it was certain that at supper time they could not have a fresh glass of beer. He thought, therefore, that they had a right to say that they should be allowed to purchase beer at a later hour on Sunday than noon; that there should be two hours during which the purchase would be possible-at noon and later. English workman should therefore refuse | Measures that had been submitted to the to share the discomfort with his wife, House from time to time. He had who was compelled almost to endure it? heard that a Commission was likely to He said nothing about the extent to be appointed to inquire into the whole which the present state of things en-subject of licensing; but the question couraged neglect of attendance at any raised in this Bill was utterly apart from place of worship, but when this and other the proposals contained in the Measures facts were taken into consideration, they to which he had alluded. He earnestly were surely sufficient to make one feel hoped their Lordships would assent to that some little sacrifice should be made the Second Reading of the Bill. It that some little restriction might was with the view of enabling them wisely be imposed to facilitate a happier in some measure to discharge this restate of things, and to remove tempta- sponsibility, and still more to increase tions and dangers which now existed. the comfort and the happiness of the He was glad to see that the legislation humbler classes, that he asked their of two years ago establishing County Lordships to give this Measure a favourand Parish Councils had created a ten-able consideration. He moved that the dency he saw signs of it already in Bill be now read a Second time. many country districts to provide public halls of one kind or another where a working man might meet his friends, or to which he might go with his wife and children, on the Sunday afternoon and evening-["hear, hear!"]-and for his own part he thought such places would fail in one of their highest purposes if they were not opened on the Sunday as well as on other days. It was sometimes urged that in this matter they were legislating for those who felt no grievance for those who were content with things as they were. But that was far from being the fact. Among the humbler classes there was a wide-spread desire for some legislation of the kind, and large numbers of the working men eagerly desired some such restriction as this Bill imposed. Such a Bill would be a great encouragement If that condition be conceded, he could to those of the humbler classes who wished to promote temperance among their own rank of life. They knew only too well the evils that resulted from intemperance, and were ready to make almost any sacrifice to combat them. It may be further urged that they ought not to place restrictions on one particular industry, but it must be remembered that this was the only privileged trade in the country as regarded the Lord's day. This, however, was no comprehensive or far-reaching Measure. Many of the Measures bearing on this subject which had been brought before Parliament had, he believed, been wrecked entirely through attempting to do too much; but this was a Bill very simple and restricted in character, and was not at all to be confounded with the more ambitious Archbishop of York. conceive nothing that could be said against the Bill, and he personally would have great pleasure in voting for the Second Reading. THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (the Duke of DEVONSHIRE) did not know how far their Lordships might feel disposed to enter upon a discussion of the very interesting subject which was raised by the Bill; but he did not propose, on the part of the Government, to follow the most rev. Prelate into that discussion, because he thought that under the present circumstances it would be undesirable that the House should be asked to express a definite judgment either for or against this Measure. The most rev. Prelate referred to a rumour as to the appointment of a Royal Commission to inquire into the licensing laws. There was the Commission were composed of absosomething more than rumour, because lutely independent men, supposing that he believed that in another place the could be achieved, he might not have so intimation had been made by the Gov- much to say against it, but when it was ernment of an intention to recommend to be formed of all the different sections the appointment of such a Commission. of opinion upon licensing matters, the Although the names of the gentlemen result of the Inquiry would, he was who were to be asked to serve upon the satisfied, only prove to be reports and Commission had not yet been published, counter reports which would leave them considerable progress had been made in in exactly the same position in which framing the list of members, who would they were now. Under these circumrepresent almost all shades of opinion stances, he, as an old partaker in legisupon the subject. He could not agree lation on this particular subject, felt with the most rev. Prelate that an In- bound to protest against the appointquiry such as was contemplated was one ment of this Commission, which pracaltogether apart from the limited ques- tically meant delay and nothing else. tion raised by the Bill. No such Inquiry He believed that if legislation on the as was proposed to be held could avoid subject was necessary, they were all in going into the question of the total or possession of information enough at the partial closing of public houses on Sun- present time to enable them to underdays; and it seemed to him that when, take it. In his opinion, that legislation as he understood, with very general would practically be far more serviceassent from all shades of opinion on the able if it took the shape of a codification subject, the whole question was about and consolidation of the law as it at to be inquired into, it would not tend to present existed, rather than went into assist the deliberations of the Commis- the numerous Amendments which seemed sion, it would not advance a solution of to be proposed from every part of the any of the questions at issue, if their country. He felt that public opinion, Lordships' House, as one branch of the which had done so much to do away Legislature which might have at some with what was complained of in the future time to pronounce an opinion shape of drunkenness in one class of the upon the whole of the recommendations of the Commission, were to commit itself at this moment to the principle contained in this Measure. On the part of the Government, he suggested that the most fitting course which could be pursued now was that the most rev. Prelate should consent to the adjournment of the Debate. LORD community, was gradually effecting its purpose with respect to all other classes. Artisans, as a body, were becoming aware of the advantage it was to them, in seeking employment, if they could produce certificates of sobriety, and he was satisfied that as education proceeded and it was proceeding rapidly amongst that class and as the comforts of the working classes were more studied-and they were being more studied from day to day-the same public opinion would effect the change in those classes which had been effected in other classes. But what he rose to say was that he protested against the appointment of a Commission, because he believed it to be an absolute waste of time. ROOKWOOD protested against the action which was proposed to be pursued by the Government. He understood, from what had fallen from the noble Duke, it was the intention of the Government to refer all these questions to a Royal Commission, to be appointed, and from what had been published in the newspapers they might imagine that all sections of opinion upon LORD HERSCHELL confessed he these thorny questions were to form very much sympathised with what the parts of the Commission. They had had noble Lord had just said. He did not Committees and Commissions without believe much would be gained by inend dealing with these questions, and he quiring generally into the question of did not believe that after the Royal licensing. Strangely enough, the only Commission had practically wasted two question which would seem a fitting ore or three years more, they would be in for inquiry had not found any represenpossession of any more information, or tative, so far as the names had been in any better position to legislate. If published, upon the Commission which He it was proposed to appoint. The Goth- | more progress would be made than if they enburg system was, no doubt, one of very attempted to deal with the whole country great interest, and it was a subject upon at once. He made those observations in which there was not so much known as no unfriendly spirit to the Bill, but from was known on the licensing question the conviction that they should not deal generally. He had not seen suggested with a matter so intimately affecting the as a member of the Commission any wishes and feelings of the masses in gentleman who had specially studied the that House, where they were not repreGothenburg question, and who would be sented. ["Hear, hear!"] specially competent to illustrate the facts THE BISHOP OF LONDON said, in regard to it. That seemed to him the that the Bishops and clergy of the only subject of practical novelty on Church of England had more than which some light could be obtained. As ordinary knowledge of the general feelto the Bill now before the House, it was ing among the working classes. of course, impossible not to sympathise understood the Lord President of the with its object. Personally, he would Council to object to the passing of any be by no means indisposed to see the such Bill when a Royal Commission was restrictions upon the opening of public about to be appointed to inquire into houses on Sundays increased, but he could this question, and he could well undernot help feeling that any Measure relating stand that those who had not studied to Sunday Closing was eminently one the subject carefully should desire more to be dealt with in the other House. information before deciding on one side They were not the representatives of or the other. He felt confident, those most closely concerned in this however, that they did know what was question, nor did they represent those to the wish of a very large proportion of the whom it mattered whether the public- working classes, and if they looked into houses were open a few hours on Sun- the matter they would find victims of days. To large classes in this country intemperance who would welcome such it was a matter of great importance, on a Measure as that. When the Durham which they felt deeply. If the Bill Bill was before the House, it was shown came with the sanction of the representa- that in certain towns, where drunkenness tives of the people he would vote for it most prevailed, there was found the with the utmost satisfaction, but he largest number of householders who doubted the wisdom of the initiation in were in favour of strict restrictions, and that House of a Measure concerning the more strict the better. He did not matters of which they could not be share the view that it was necessary to wait specially cognisant, particularly as to for the Report of the Commission before the feelings of the people. He doubted action could be taken, but he agreed with if they would ever find it possible to the noble and learned Lord who had just pass a Measure which should apply by spoken that it would be more suitable the direct action of Parliament to all that such Measures as this should come portions of the community alike. There from the other House, not because he were some parts of the country quite thought they were better able to deal ripe for a change; on the other hand, if with it than their Lordships were, but they took London, he was not at all because he thought the House of Comsatisfied that it would be possible-that mons were more certain to gauge the it would be safe-to pass such a Measure amount of support the country would as this at the present time. ["Hear, give to such a Measure. ["Hear, hear!"] hear!"] If they tried to go in advance He thought that it was the duty of that of public opinion they would defeat House to find out what was the general their own object. It would be much opinion of the classes most affected by safer to give to representative local that Measure, and he was sure it authorities the power to deal with this matter, so that it need not be dealt with alike all over the country. They might have such an agitation from one part as would render it impossible to legislate at all. If they frankly recognised this, Lord Herschell. would be well for the country if they did. That House was in a position to be more impartial than people generally, and could act as moderators in dealing with the question. If the Bill went to a Division he should vote for it, but he LORD ROOKWOOD explained that he should be inclined to support the Bill, because, with some Amendments, he believed it would be an improvement on the existing law. His speech was directed against delay in dealing with the subject which he believed would be the result of appointing a Royal Com should prefer to accept the alternative held on this question; what chance then suggested by the Lord President of the would such a happy family have of Council. throwing light on the subject? It was too much the habit of Parliament now to shelve difficult questions by means of a Commission. This Commission would still further confuse the question. He maintained that it would not be better to discuss such a Bill first in the lower House, inasmuch as the prospects of coming elections embarrassed Members of that House in discussing questions of this kind there. Their Lordships' House was really as representative of the interests of the country, and they had the advantage mission. THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Lord BALFOUR) said, he was surprised at the speech of the noble Lord behind him (Rookwood) in his ex- moreover of not having the hustings treme condemnation of a Commission of always before their eyes. Inquiry. Nor did he agree with LORD KIMBERLEY said, it was the noble Lord that they knew all about perfectly true that if this Commission the subject. He was certain that those was one simply to inquire into licensing, who were most confident that they did the questions raised by the most rev. know all about it were the extreme Prelate's Bill would scarcely come under partisans on both sides. He would not its cognisance. He did not agree with enter into the question, which the noble the view of his noble Friend as to the and learned Lord opposite said was a position of the two Houses in regard to thorny one [laughter], but he thought this matter; that House could hardly be the discussion proved the necessity of considered as a representative body, and further inquiry and further information. the Members of the lower House, inasTime might be profitably spent in much as it was their duty to ascertain endeavouring to come to some agreement the drift of opinion in the country, and to the step which the Legislature as they had much better opportunities might take. Such an agreement did not for doing so, were likely to be better exist at present, and the Inquiry might judges of that opinion. There had been at least indicate such an agreement. very great difficulties in dealing with Reference had been made to some names this question, and the object of this which had been published, but perhaps Commission was, as a matter of fact, to it would not be wise to negative them. shelve the matter for a considerable It might be found difficult to appoint a time. If the Commissioners were to inpurely judicial body. It would be better quire into the whole question of the to take the representatives of extreme consumption of intoxicating liquors, no views on both sides, and add others who doubt some Blue-books of portentous size were uncommitted, and who, therefore, would be produced, but the only result would be impartial on the question. The of these roving Commissions, which were list was not complete, and they should composed of so many Members that they not be able to make it up for a day or two. were almost little Parliaments, was to He hoped that there would be no long get a number of Reports expressing a delay before a complete list of names variety of opinions, of the existence of was announced. which everyone was previously aware. *LORD NORTON said, the subject["Hear, hear!"] He was willing to suswhich would be referred to this Commis- pend his judgment, but thought a roving sion, so far as they knew, would be that Commission of the nature proposed of licensing, but this Bill had nothing would not contribute to the solution of whatever to do with licensing, but dealt the Question. really with the use of public-houses, after they were licensed, which was a very different question. The noble Lord told them that this Commission would be a collection of strong partisans of the various conflicting views which were THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HALSBURY) said, he should like to know whether it was really true that all the facts were ascertained, and whether, if some broad proposition of fact would not be accepted on both sides of the House. |