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1890 it was provided that every man of recruits for the police. When the who had been employed in any pension- Secretary to the Treasury objected to able department who entered the police this mixing up of the pensions of force, whether paid by that House or by different Departments, he would refer to the Police Fund, should be entitled to the evidence given before the Committee count his previous civil service towards on the Employment of Soldiers, in his pension, but soldiers and sailors were which it was stated that when the late not accorded the same privilege. Such Mr. Raikes formed the scheme for a grievance, he should have thought, passing the telegraph messengers into only required to be mentioned to be the Army before they received perinstantly remedied, but, so far, no move manent employment in the police, the had been made in the direction of put- Treasury consented to their Army time ting soldiers and sailors in the same counting for pension in their Post Office position as their confrères. He asked service. He, therefore, said that the the Home Secretary about the matter, answers given for putting off this remedy and he at once admitted the hardship of were most flimsy and devoid of any the case, but said the Treasury had a substance or justification at all. When great objection to pensioning men partly those who earnestly desired to benefit by the War Department and partly by the service and to support the Governthe Civil Department. He then went ment were met in this way by a non to the Secretary to the Treasury from possumus, it was not surprising they whom he received a sympathetic response, were compelled to vote for a Resolution and a promise to look into the question. to which the Government might possibly After waiting for some months without object, but which he and others who hearing anything he put a question to shared his views felt it their bounden the right hon. Gentleman the previous duty to support. night, but the answer did not appear in *MR. A. M. BROOKFIELD (Sussex, the public journals. He supposed it Rye) would like to say a few words on was not sent to the newspapers as this question, as he had the honour of Ministers' answers, as a rule, were, and drafting the Report of the Committee he would not quote it at length as he which recently sat on this subject. might not be able to do so accurately. believed that neither the mover, the It was sufficient to say that one of the seconder, nor the right hon. Gentleman main reasons for not applying the who had just spoken had at all exaggeremedy asked for was to the following rated the seriousness of this problem. effect That if soldiers entering the He should say they had rather underpolice were allowed to count their time stated than overstated it. He believed in the Army for pensions, then pen- the whole difficulty could be illustrated sioners from the Army who were now at the present moment by a glance at allowed to draw their pensions in addi- the Treasury Bench when this question, tion to their civil pay, could not be any which was one of national importance, longer allowed to do so. That was a was left to the tender mercies of an Departmental answer of the kind of Under Secretary, whose sympathies which it used to be said, "Oh! it were known beforehand to be on the is good enough for the House of side of anything that could be done in Commons." There were police officers his own department, whilst the Treasury in that House who had served 20 years and the Home Office were practically unin the Army, who would have to serve represented, and the Front Opposition seven years more than their confrères, Bench deserted. Now the real crux of and all over the country there were this difficulty was what to do with the policemen who had been in the Army 15,000, or 16,000, or 17,000 men who serving side by side with men who had were annually passed into the reserve. been in the Post Office, the Customs Hitherto the only earnest attempts to deal Department, and so forth, and while the with that question had been made by the latter could count their former service National Association, which had done for a pension the ex-soldier could not. excellent work; by private individuals That was a manifest injustice, and a to some extent; by some of the great direct discouragement to the best class railway companies; and, to some small Sir James Fergusson.

:

He

it had failed, in fact-but that it had

This inconsistency, Mr. Joyce coolly explained, was more apparent than real, as it had been found that the dread of their sons having possibly to serve with the colours had begun to have a deterrent effect on what he considered the more respectable class of parents in letting their sons enter the telegraph service. Was it not conceivable that

more

extent, by the War Office and the Admi-employment of soldiers, gave evidence ralty; but never by Her Majesty's Gov- on this point before the Select Commiternment as representing the State. Their tee, and stated that not only was the object that evening should be to put it scheme found to have a bad effect-that before the Government and the country that this was a matter which concerned the State, and which should have State never come into practical operation! assistance. The attitude of the State had hitherto been one of masterly incompetence. They had always taken up the non possumus attitude of "We cannot do it; we only wish we could." What was the mysterious power behind the State that prevented their doing any thing they pleased? He believed it was the permanent civilian officials, who, throughout all the controversy on this they might make the Army a subject, had shown the most consistent respectable calling if they provided hostility to the welfare of the soldier for the future of those who went into and sailor. There was no more lament- the Army? This scheme by which large able instance of the sinister influence numbers of men of the Army reserve would of the permanent official mind, than have been provided for, had never been in the action taken with regard to allowed a fair trial or a chance of being the Post Office Enlistment scheme, as it tried. He believed the hostility of the was called. He did not believe the permanent officials and of a small number House or the country ever thoroughly of Members opposite to the employment understood what was done in regard to of old soldiers proceeded from the confuthat matter. In 1891 the then Post- sion they made between the soldier of the master General, the late Mr. Cecil present day and the soldier of the past. Raikes, with the full approval of the He was not going to deny that the long serTreasury, decided that in future, when vice soldier of a quarter of a century ago telegraph messengers reached the age of was unfitted in many respects for certain 18, they should be encouraged to enlist forms of civil employment. But since in other words, their promotion should that time not only had short service cease in the Post Office, but that if they been introduced, but the social status of chose to go into the Army and serve the soldier, and his educational and with the colours for five years they moral calibre had very greatly improved would find places kept for them on their also. He thought, therefore, that hon. return. The difficulty of concurrent Members and officials who believed service in the two Departments was got it their duty to oppose giving soldiers over in that case, for their service with a chance of employment in civil the colours was to count as half-life, ought more candidly to examine time service in the Post Office. He what he was likely to prove himself thought the country ought to understand when he had a fair chance, instead of the circumstances under which this excel- allowing their minds to dwell upon lent scheme was abandoned and reversed. stories of the drunkenness and depravity When the right hon. Baronet the of the old fighting animal of a bygone Member for North-East Manchester age. Manchester age. The present-day experience of the succeeded the late Mr. Raikes he took soldier's worth was entirely in favour of up this system with enthusiasm, but on The praca change of Government it was completely reversed on the ground that it had not succeeded. He believed it required the mind of a permanent official to prove that a thing had been unsuccessful when it had never been tried at all.

Mr. Joyce, of the Post Office, who had distinguished himself by his consistent opposition to any plans for the VOL. XXXIX. [FOURTH SERIES.]

giving him a better chance.
tice in foreign countries was very
different from that followed in England,
and their experience of the employment of
the soldier in civil life was strongly in
favour of it. A short time since the
Iron and Steel Trade Association sent an
important delegation to Germany and
Belgium to inquire into the reasons why
those countries were able to compete so
3 S

ing difficulty of manning our Volunteer Army and Navy, the possibility of applying such a system in the United Kingdom is worthy of serious study.”

successfully with England in that indus-discipline, for service in the public offices, withtry, and in the Report they issued-a out throwing any increased burden on the State. document which was not intended in the I cannot but think that, in view of the increasremotest degree to have any bearing on this question-it was stated that one of the explanations of that success was the superiority of the German over the["Hear, hear!"] He had already English workman in his implicit dis-admitted that the action of the War cipline, and his clock-work obedience to Office in this matter had been of a benethe word of command in the workshop. volent character, but the War Office That surely was an argument in favour and other Departments were powerless of employing men who had done military without assistance from the Treasury. service who had been for years sub- Now, there were two points he would jected to discipline. ["Hear, hear!"] suggest for the consideration of the He might quote, also, in support of the Government. One was that the SecreResolution, from reports furnished by tary of State for War should consider the Military Attachés at our Embassies the feasibility of reserving the posts of abroad as to the employment of soldiers officers' servants to men of the Army by Government Departments. He re- Reserve-[“ hear, hear!"-and the ferred to the Paper marked "Commer- other point was that the Chancellor of cial, No 5, 1893." In a letter enclosing the Exchequer should consider whether a Report to the Earl of Rosebery, Sir it would not be possible to remit altoA. Paget, writing from Vienna, gether the tax on male servants in cases February 1, 1893, said :

"This system which, according to Colonel Dawson's Report, is largely practised in this Empire, would appear to be attended with the best results, and, if I may be permitted to offer an opinion, would be peculiarly beneficial in countries where the conscription does not exist, as offering an additional inducement to good men to enter the ranks of the Army."

Lord Dufferin, writing to the Earl of
Rosebery from Paris in January 1893,
enclosing a Dispatch from Colonel
Talbot, said :—

"Owing to the necessity of having wellqualified non-commissioned officers, soldiers who have already attained this grade are tempted to re-engage after the compulsory period of three years, by the special inducement, among others, of about 500 different descriptions of appointments being reserved for retired non-commis

sioned officers."

where the men employed belonged to the reserve, or were pensioners from the Army or Navy. If the Government persevered in its present attitude, the result would be not only considerable inefficiency in the services, but a feeling of exasperation which would find expres

sion in the House as well as out of it. But he trusted Ministers would be induced to see the necessity of a new policy, thus removing what was really a disgrace to the country and a standing reproach to the Government of the day.

MR. H. E. KEARLEY (Devonport) said, he wished to dissociate the Opposition side of the House from the prejudice that everything connected with soldiers was disreputable. He had the greatest possible sympathy with the Motion, and in support of it he desired to say a few words on behalf of sailors. Having "If State employment in the United Kingdom found themselves, at the early age of 38, served the country for 20 years, they were assured to soldiers of good conduct after the completion of a certain number of years of unable to obtain any but the most casual service, the general public would gain largely employment at inadequate remuneration through the increased efficiency of the service employers taking advantage of the in those departments to which such soldiers

Sir Edward Malet, in a Dispatch from
Berlin in the same month, said that :-

were admitted."

And lastly Lord Vivian, in a Dispatch from Rome on February 2, 1893,

fact that they had a small pension. This was a most unfortunate result, considering their generally good characters, robust health, and willingness to work. Some expression of sympathy "The effect of this system is to popularise of the Admiralty would be much apprewith them by an official representative service in the Army and Navy,

said :

and

at the same time to provide a body of deserving ciated. For himself he could not impress trained to habits of order, sobriety, and too strongly upon employers what a Mr. A. M. Brookfield.

men,

sailors when their service had expired the effect better stamp might be induced to enter the on recruiting would be good, and some men of Army."

Further, the Committee expressed

"The earnest hope that their recommendations would be taken into consideration by the Departments concerned with as little delay as possible."

North-East

Governments
that Report.
ALL.]

the Report of the Committee of 1876, the short service system had greatly developed, and the question had become more difficult; and that in view of the demand for higher wages, the carrying

splendid body of men they were. In a employment were to be given to soldiers and business with which he was connected, employment had been given preferentially to sailors for a number of years, not only as doorkeepers but in other capacities, and some of the men had been found to possess such admirable qualifications that they had been risen to higher positions, and even to the control of departments; and the firm considered that they had been exceptionally That little delay had occupied the modest fortunate in obtaining the services, at period of 20 years. ["Hear, hear!"] the early age of 30, of a number of men With the honourable exception of what who had received a valuable training at had been done by the hon. Member for the expense of the country. If the AdManchester, succeeding miralty were to take some steps to make had practically ignored known to employers that such men were ["No," from Mr. WOODwas This question available they might find better employentirely ment for many of them. This would be divested from all Party feeling. [Cheers.] beneficial not only to the men but also to It represented interests common, not the State itself. It must be detrimental only to every constituency, but to every to the services that there should be in class. The later Committee which the country a number of unemployed reported in 1895, pointed out that since men who had served the State in the Army and Navy; and therefore both the State and the men would benefit by opening up better prospects on their discharge. SIR H. HAVELOCK-ALLAN (Dur- out of the recommendations of the Comham, S. E.) wished to reciprocate from the Ministerial side of the House what had been said as to the claims of the sailors. In no way were the Army and Navy more closely connected than the Lord Lansdowne had shown an mutual desire that the services should be ment. equally recognised and that the country earnest desire to carry out the recomshould make provision for those who had mendations of the Committees, and the honourably served it by land and sea. Under Secretary for War was deeply In this matter he was himself somewhat impressed with the importance of of a painful survival, because he brought this as national question. the subject before the House on the 1st the cardinal point was that pointed of May, 1876, by moving a Resolution out by the Committee-that since the behalf of soldiers, sailors, and introduction of the short service system, marines. The result was the appoint- and 16,000 men were every year passing ment of a Select Committee, the results into the Reserve, the difficulty of the of whose inquiries anticipated what had question had become greater. The been said to-night in support of this employment of soldiers and sailors who Motion. It was a reproach to successive had served 21 years had received some Governments that in the meantime recognition. All that could be done was practically nothing had been done. The done; and at the War Office and Committee of 1876 consisted of 23 selected Members of the House of Commons and was presided ever by Mr. Childers. It sat through the Session of 1876, and part of the Session of 1877, reporting in the July of that year. The Report stated:

on

"There is reason to believe that if it were understood that a considerable portion of civil

mittee would not only increase the efficiency of the soldiers, but also be of great advantage to the State. He did not wish to impute any want of sympathy on this question to the present Govern

a

But

Admiralty all the patronage was given to old soldiers and sailors. It was not of those Departments that complaint was made, but of the vis inertia of the other Departments. The crux of the question now was the employment of the Reserve soldier; and the greatest obstacle to the enlistment of a physically better class of men was this dire uncertainty as to

civil employment at the expiration of while in barracks, he reminded the the time with the colours. No com- House that we drew three parts of our plaint whatever was made of the moral recruits from the agricultural labouring calibre of the men in the Army at population, and if it was remembered present. They were not at all deficient that it was essential, under present coneither in character or in zeal, but they ditions, that these men should go back were lamentably deficient in physique. to agricultural labour, how absurd it was There were some things which it was to think that in five or seven years, they still in the power of the War Office to do, could teach these men a trade which and in which they would have the sup- would stand between them and the port of the services of every right-think- necessity of reverting to agricultural ing man in the country. By giving labour. It was true that they were employment to reservists an end might disqualified from taking front rank as be put to that evil so greatly deprecated, agricultural labourers after they were of battalions attenuated by men taken discharged. We could not plough up out of the active ranks for service. the barrack yards, and we could not Then, in a Department with which the turn the Army horses into plough horses, War Office had a great deal to do, there so as to teach the soldiers to earn good were many vacancies which ought to be agricultural wages after their time was exclusively given to Reserve soldiers over. It was not creditable to this he referred to Woolwich Arsenal. There, country or to successive Governments some 12,000 men were employed, and that voluntary associations had to take though he did not say that old soldiers the leading work in this matter. Referwere capable of filling the places of ence had been made to regimental asskilled artisans, there were, undoubtedly, sociations. They gave their regimental 4,000 or 6,000 places which might with officers poor pay enough for the work great advantage be so filled. A still they had to do, and yet they expected greater field of labour was the great them to take the additional burden of railways, and in this connection he contributing to find employment for the thought it would be worth while to have old soldiers who passed out of the ranks. in the War Office an officer whose sole Two-thirds of the old soldiers who apduty it should be to place himself in plied for service in the police were recommunication with the great railway jected as unfit. That meant either that companies for the purpose of finding the treatment of the soldiers while in the places for large numbers of Reserve ranks made them physically unfit, or soldiers. that the standard of fitness in the Army COLONEL KENYON-SLANEY was so poor that the soldier was physic(Shropshire, Newport) remarked that the ally unfit when he came in. On one or friends of this cause would be in a far other horn of the dilemma they were better position if successive Governments, impaled. He did not think the House even if they had not the power absolutely realised fully the unfairness of the system to give them the help they demanded, as it now stood, as between the soldier had, at all events given them the in- and civil life. He would take two men, formation they asked for. If they had a A and C. "A" was a young man of Return, showing exactly the amount of 18 years who joined the Army and employment that had been given, the served six years. At 24 he applied to offices that were contributing to the em- go into the police force, and, being acployment of old soldiers and sailors, the cepted, had to complete 26 years before replies given by the large industrial he could get a pension. He would then employers of labour to requests for em- be 50 years old, and would have served ployment, and, above all, gibbetting in 32 years. His comrade of the same age, public those firms which had declined to instead of serving in the Army, served employ old soldiers and sailors, the posi- six years in the Post Office. He was tion would be more satisfactory. It was able to retire after 29 years and 9 a pity that information of that sort had months' service on a full pension. Take not been eagerly given instead of being the case of a man who had served 12 extorted from the reluctance of succes- years in the army, as compared with the sive Governments. With reference to man who had served the same number the trade education given to soldiers of years in the Post Office. As the Sir H. Havelock-Allan.

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