Other verbal Amendments having been had been given why the proposal of his MR. T. LOUGH (Islington, W.) thought that no case had been made out for resisting the reasonable proposal of his hon. Friend. The Bill was very much confused by the Amendments of which the right hon. Gentleman had himself given notice, and it was really very hard to understand it. His hon. Friend had clearly explained that there could be no difficulty in getting a Resolution through. He thought the protection in the Bill was really very illusory, and it seemed to him that very simple words were suggested to take its place. He did not imagine that a Resolution of the kind would be discussed at any length. pro *MR. BRODRICK said, he should be most anxious to adopt any recommendations coming from the right hon. Gentleman opposite. The Government were anxious, if possible to give Parliament every proper control over their posals. They were appointing a local Consultative Commission, and they also proposed to accept the Amendment which stood in the name of the hon. Member for Tavistock in Clause 5, page 3, line 18, which, beyond the procedure in the Bill, would give to every locality an opportunity of appealing against the decision of the local Consultative Commis sion. SIR J. T. BRUNNER (Cheshire, Northwich) asked whether the Consultative Commission would meet on the spot, and would avoid putting the commoners and other inhabitants to expense in putting their objections before them. *MR. BRODRICK: Certainly, they will meet on the spot. MR. LUTTRELL said he was very glad to hear that the Government were going to accept his Amendment to Clause 5. That would secure that public opinion should be adequately represented on the spot, and he had put down the Amendment as to the Resolution in order that local opinion might be adequately expressed in the House of Commons. Question put. The Committee divided:-Ayes, 16; Clause 1, as amended, agreed to. Clause 2, REGULATIONS AS ΤΟ THE FORCES. Within the prescribed limits and during the prescribed period, the forces as defined by this Act may— (a) with their arms, munitions of war, and stores, pass over, and execute military manœuvres on, any unenclosed and any authorised enclosed land, whether public or private; and (b) encamp on any unenclosed land or authorised enclosed land; and (c) dig trenches and throw up temporary field works on any unenclosed land or authorised enclosed land for the purpose of any encampment and for military exercises; and (d) supply themselves with water from any (e) use any private or occupation roads; and LUTTRELL moved several MR. verbal agreed to. *MR. BRODRICK moved to insert at the end of the sub-section the following provision: "Provided that the officer in command of the forces shall cause all lands used under this section to be restored as soon as and as far as practicable to their previous condition, and shall take care that there is no interference with earthworks, ruins, or other remains of antiquarian or historic interest." MR. LUTTRELL thought that the words of the hon. Gentleman did not cover the whole object he had in view, because it did not include valuable and ornamental timber. Under this proviso protection was not given to trees, unless old trees were considered to be objects He therefore of antiquarian interest. would propose, after the word "with" in the Amendment, to insert "valuable or ornamental timber," etc. *MR. BRODRICK said that this would be to imply that ordinary timber could be interfered with and cut down Neither valuable nor ordinary timber *MR. BRODRICK accepted the would be interfered with. Amendment. MR. GIBSON BOWLES (Lynn, Regis) pointed out that the forces were authorised not merely to deal with land, but to dam streams. *MR. BRODRICK said, land included land covered by water. MR. LUTTRELL said, he was willing to withdraw his Amendment after the assurance of his hon. Friend. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 2, as amended agreed to. Clause 3, LANDS CLOSED AGAINST PASSAGE OF "Nothing in this Act shall empower the forces to enter upon or interfere with (except for the purpose of using authorised roads) any dwelling-house, farmyard, garden, orchard, pleasure ground, nursery ground, or park, or any premises enclosed within the curtilage of or attached to any dwelling-house, or any enclosed wood or plantation, or any other enclosed land, except such other enclosed lands as may be declared to be lands on which the forces are authorised to enter, in this Act referred to as authorised enclosed lands." Amendment agreed to. MR. LUTTRELL moved to insert after " dwelling house," or any lands bearing roots or standing crops." In one, and he thought in all of the Bills for these manœuvres, there was this safeguard that the interests of agriculture might not be interfered with. They heard a good deal about the depressed state of agriculture, which they understood the Government were anxious to relieve. *MR. BRODRICK said, he could not accept the Amendment. There might be a tongue of land of this description running out into the middle of the field of operations, and if this were tabooed it would utterly spoil the manœuvres. There was not the slightest difficulty in assessing damages to crops, and comIn some cases pensation would be paid. where the crops were damaged, the farmers having received compensation earnestly wished that the forces should come a second time. The commanding officers of the forces had the strongest reasons for not damaging the crops. MR. J. W. LOGAN (Leicester, Harborough), thought it was a new way of relieving agriculture to allow armed forces to march over standing crops. *MR. BRODRICK said, the manœuvres would be held too late in the year to pass over standing crops. MR. LUTTRELL moved to insert after "roads" the words, "any common land which is the subject of any Act of Parliament, Scheme, or Provisional Order, having for its object the preservaMR. LOGAN said, that was an tion and protection of such common land reason excellent or." These commons were generally for accepting the adjoining large towns, and, therefore, he Amendment, and he should support his proposed that they should safeguard hon. Friend. the interests of the citizens of these towns. *MR. BRODRICK said, they had put into the Bill every kind of provision they could to protect commoners and owners, but this Amendment which have the effect of keeping large tracts of country entirely outside the possible operation of the Bill, and it would be impossible for the local Committee to go over it. MR. LUTTRELL said, he was quite willing to withdraw the Amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. MR. LUTTRELL moved to omit the words " or park." MR. COURTENAY WARNER (Stafford, Lichfield) said, the Government would have to pay for the damage, and they were thus making a permanent Bill for the taxpayer to pay. *MR. BRODRICK said, this was a matter of experience. As a matter of fact, last year certain owners and occupiers had consented to allow troops to go over their land. MR. LUTTRELL suggested that the Government should accept "standing crops" without the land "bearing roots.' He owned that there was not the same amount of damage done in both cases. Amendment negatived. Clause, as amended, agreed to. Clause 4, COMPENSATION FOR DAMAGE DONE BY FORCES. Full compensation shall be made, out of money to be provided by Parliament, for any damage that may be caused to any lands within the prescribed limits by or in consequence of the forces, or strangers accompanying the forces, passing over or occupying the lands, and the amount of compensation payable to any person entitled to compensation shall, if disputed, in each case of damage be determined as in this Act mentioned; but no person belonging to the forces shall be liable to any action, indictment, or other legal proceeding in respect of any trespass committed by him upon, or damage done to, land within the prescribed limits. Mr. E. H. HULSE (Salisbury) proposed to add after "any lands" the words,— "And for any disturbance of any rights of common, of pasturage, pannage, or turbary, or other rights of common, and for the payment or loss incurred by the owners or licensees on account of the removal or disturbance of their commonable animals during the prescribed period." *MR. BRODRICK explained that this and other Amendments were covered by Amendments which it was intended that he should move. by the passage of the forces or munitions of war to any highway for the repair of which that authority is responsible.” Amendment agreed to. Clause 5, APPOINTMENT AND HOURS OF CONSULTA TIVE COMMISSION. (1.) Whenever an Order in Council is made under this Act, a consultative Commission shall be formed consisting of the Lords Lieutenants of the counties wholly or partly within the prescribed limits, of two persons appointed by each such Lord Lieutenant, and of two persons appointed by the County Councils of each of those counties, and of such other persons, if any, as any such Lord Lieutenant is unable or unwilling may be appointed by the Secretary of State. If to act, the Secretary of State may appoint a person to act in his place, and if any person appointed by the County Council dies, resigns, or is unable or unwilling to act, the County Council may appoint a person to act in his place. they think fit with respect to the places and (2.) The Commission may make such rules as times of meeting, the quorum at meetings, and their mode of procedure. (3.) Every question shall be decided by a majority of the votes of the members of the Commission voting on that question. (4.) The officer in command of the forces, and the consultative Commission, may by order authorise anything by this Act directed or permitted to be authorised, and in particular declare what enclosed lands, roads, or sources of water authorised roads, or authorised sources of water are to be deemed to be authorised enclosed lands, for all or any of the purposes of this Act. by order make regulations with respect to the (5.) The said officer and Commission may also protection of cattle and sheep by securing them in folds or farmyards, and with respect to any other matter which they may deem essential perty and for more efficiently carrying into for the purpose of preventing damage to pro effect the purposes of this Act. (6.) Public notice shall be given in such manner as may be directed by the consultative Commission, of any regulation made in pursuance of this Act for the protection of any cattle, sheep, or other property, and any person who neglects to comply with any regulations so made in relation to his property shall not be entitled to claim compensation in respect of any damage caused to the property in consequence of his having been guilty of the neglect. (7.) The consultative Commission may delegate any of the powers given to them by this Act to any committee or committees consisting of two or more of their number, and any such committee or committees shall during the prescribed period attend upon and be in communication with the officer commanding the forces or any officer deputed by him. more than one-half of the whole consultative Commission. (8.) Any powers by this Act given to the con- | Council; and instead of the Secretary of sultative Commission and the officer in command State having unlimited power of apof the forces of making any Order, or doing any other thing may be exercised on behalf of the pointment, he proposed to accept an Commission, by any member of the Commission amendment of the hon. Member for to whom those powers may be delegated by the Somerset, which would provide that the Commission, and on behalf of the officer in command of the forces by any officer deputed power of appointment should not be by him for the purpose; and for the purpose of facilitating the exercise of the powers conferred by this Act on the Commission and officer in command, the Commission and officer shall make arrangements for securing the attendance of a sufficient number of members of the Commission at such places and with such bodies of troops as may be agreed upon, with the view of the members so in attendance acting for the purposes of this section in conjunction with the officer in command of the forces or any MR. LUTTRELL thought it would have been better if these alterations had been in print; but so far as he understood them, he had no objection at all. He should like to point out that the Lord Lieutenant was not one who could speak the opinions of a locality. ["Oh!"] He might be able to speak them wrongly, He begged to move, after "consisting (9.) Any Order made in pursuance of this section in relation to lands or any local matter in sub-section (1), to leave out, "of the may describe the lands or matter by reference Lords. Lieutenant to a map, or in any other convenient manner. wholly or partly officers deputed by him. of the counties within the pre(10.) Any Order declaring what enclosed scribed limits, of two persons aplands, roads, or sources of water are to be pointed by each such Lord Lieutenant." deemed authorised enclosed lands, roads, or The Lord Lieutenant would not be able sources, may either describe the lands, roads, so well to express the opinion of the or sources so authorised, or may declare all the enclosed lands, roads, or sources within the prelocality as the Councillors, who were the scribed limits, or within any particular area representatives of the people. They with the specified exceptions, to be authorised must not lose sight of the fact that the enclosed lands, roads, or sources, and the pur- Lord Lieutenant was not a representaposes for which they are so authorised. tive. He could do just what he pleased. (11.) Any Order made in pursuance of this He was far removed from local opinion, section may be rescinded or altered. and there was no one to call him to He attached *MR. BRODRICK said there was a series of amendments which had been placed on the Paper, all of which would be met by amendments he intended to propose. The desire of the Government was to have a Commission representing all those interested in land. There was no desire to have a Commission on which there should be a majority of any particular class. As the Clause stood, the Lord Lieutenant of the county would be a member and would nominate two other members. They had taken the Lord *ME. BRODRICK said, that he had Lieutenant, as he was almost always a another Amendment to introduce in large landowner, and generally a large consequence of the statement he had farmer, who held an undoubted position made, beginning at the word "of" in in the county, which enabled him to use line 40, and he would submit that the his influence for the protection of the question should be put to leave out all various local interests. The elective the words from "consisting," in line 38, element consisted of two county to the word "limits" in line 40. councillors, and the Secretary of State *THE CHAIRMAN put the question had power to add others to represent in the form suggested by Mr. Brodrick. these interests. What was now pro- MR. E. STRACHEY (Somerset, S.) posed, in lieu of this, was that, in addi- said, he hoped his hon. Friend would not tion to the Lord Lieutenant, there would press his objection, because he thought be two elected members of the County the Under Secretary had given them a Council beside the Chairman of the good deal. He had struck out the two members of the Commission to be stronger with regard to the tenantnominated by the Lord Lieutenant, farmers. It was not the landed proand, though he was strongly against the prietor who was going to suffer for any Lord Lieutenant having such a power of damage by these manœuvres, and he nomination, he was inclined to think thought the Under Secretary ought to there was no very great objection to go a little further and put a representainclude the Lord Lieutenant, considering tive of the tenant-farmers of the neighthat the Under Secretary had fairly met bourhood on the Commission. He them by putting on the Chairman of the thought the hon. Gentleman had gone County Council as a make-weight to the some distance in the direction asked by Lord Lieutenant, if they cared to look some of his hon. Friends, but he rose at it from that point of view. He principally to ask him with regard to thought the Committee ought to look at the position where a town was conthis matter dispassionately, and see that cerned. Take his own district in Scotevery interest was represented. Un- land. The military operations would be doubtedly the Lord Lieutenant would carried on in close proximity to a partirepresent an interest which the Chair- cular town, where there was probably man of the County Council would not better land than there would be some represent. He thought the Under Secre- distance away. Would the hon. Gentary had also made them a large and tleman consider, before the Report important concession when he expressed stage, whether or not it would be adhis willingness to accept, practically, his visable to have the local authority repreAmendment. They had got all they sented on this Commission, because it had asked for with the exception of the seemed to him that in some cases, the exclusion of the Lord Lieutenant, and local Town Council would be equally as that being so, they could really allow much concerned in protecting the rights the Lord Lieutenant to remain as a of the inhabitants as any County member of the Commission to represent Council. He would also ask him a distinct interest. whether he had taken into account the COLONEL KENYON-SLANEY possibility of the Lord Lieutenant not (Shropshire, Newport) said, the hon. being in the country at the time these Member for Devonshire was labouring operations were carried on? Some diffiunder what he might call an absolutely culty might arise, in such a case, if the erroneous impression. He seemed to hon. Gentleman did not introduce some think that the influence and weight of provision for the Deputy_Lieutenant the Lord Lieutenant would be thrown in having the power of the Lord Lieuthe scale in favour of the military view, tenant. as against the rural or district needs of MR. HENRY LABOUCHERE the county concerned. He ventured to (Northampton) said, the only person think that exactly the contrary would who could be deemed to be a representabe the case, and that, so far as the pre- tive was one who was elected to represent disposition of the Lord Lieutenant might a certain interest. Who did the Lord be supposed to exist, it would be abso- Lieutenant represent? The Lord Lieulutely in favour of the locality for which tenant was a great nobleman, who was he was Lord Lieutenant. He was per-selected because he was a great nobleman fectly certain that, taking the rural and a great proprietor. In a nondistricts all through, they would be elected sense, he might be supposed to delighted to see the Lord Lieutenant a represent the large proprietors, but the member of the Commission, because they large proprietors were not affected or would know that rural affairs were touched by this Bill, and surely it was quite safe in his hands. MR. J. H. DALZIEL (Kirkcaldy Burghs) said, he presumed that the Lord Lieutenant was put on the Commission to represent the landed interest in any particular locality. If there was a case for the Lord Lieutenant to be put on the Commission, surely the case was far Mr. E. Strachey. more reasonable to put on a Committee of this sort the Chairman of a County Council, and the County Councillors rather than the Lord Lieutenant, who was appointed very often through Court influence, for Party reasons, or for other such cause, and who very often did not reside frequently in the county |