of the agriculturist were identical, and, if any increase in prices took place, the first people to benefit by those higher prices would be the brewers themselves. It was objected to this Bill that it flavoured of Protection. He took exception to it because there was no Protection in it. The only protection he could see was protection for the foreign brewer and foreign grower of barley as against the English brewer and the English grower of barley. The rejection of this Bill was one of far greater importance to the agricultural interest than it was to the brewing interest. At the present time, amongst the agriculturists who were in favour of the Bill, were those who would suffer most if it became law. He did not intend to take any part in the Division, but he was much obliged to the House for listening to what he had to say as a protest against the argument of those who would lead the British public and the British farmer to believe that they were going to confer

these desirable objects might be gained barley grown in this country lacked those by the passing of this Bill, he felt sure qualities which were absolutely essential it would commend itself to the support to the production of popular beers at the of all sections of the House. But he present time. The interest of the ventured to think that those who ex- brewers in this country and the interest pected any such results from this Bill would be most grievously disappointed. He did honestly believe that no legisla tion of this kind could possibly improve or better the quality of beer that was brewed at the present time. Brewers, like those engaged in any other trade, had to cater for the public tastes, and the disappearance of those heavy, headstrong and thick beers which some hon. Members seemed so much to regret, was due not to any dark design on the part of those who manufactured beer, but to an alteration in the public taste. That alteration had been brought about by the introduction into this country of the light foreign lager and Pilsener beers, and it was, he ventured to assert, to meet that foreign competition and the alteration in the public tatste that the brewers had been obliged to modify in some degree the principle of brewing that had hitherto obtained. This competition was growing, for, whereas in 1880 something rather more than 10,000 barrels of beer were introduced into this country any boon upon them by the passing of from abroad, in 1894 that number had this Bill. He felt quite certain it would risen to something over 34,000. That only lead to dissatisfaction and disapwas sufficient to show that if any diffi- pointment. culty was put in the way of English *SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT (Monmanufacturers of turning out a certain mouthshire, W.): I have listened to this class of beer, the introduction of foreign Debate from its commencement with beer from abroad would increase by leaps some instruction, but with much more and bounds. He thought it had been amusement. To see the change of parts admitted that the Bill was brought for- which has taken place in the Party ward, not so much in the interests of opposite, contemporaneous with their temperance or of public health, but in the change of seats, is one of the most agricultural interest, and he maintained amusing transformation scenes I have that the support it had found was due to ever witnessed [Laughter.] My hon. the belief that it would raise the price of Friend who made this Motion has always English barley. Brewers were not going been consistent, and in him there is no to buy foreign barley to spite the Eng-variation at all, but the speech of the lish producers, or because it was a cheaper Seconder of the Motion, the hon. Memmaterial to use, but they would be ber for the Newport Division of Shropobliged to buy foreign barley because, as shire, had in it something of a warning was well known, fully one-third of the and minatory tone towards those whom he

admitted were their former allies-the will be stated. I am glad to see in his brewers. It has been referred to by my place, though he has only lately arrived, hon. Friend behind me as a triple alliance the Minister for Agriculture. I wish he -an alliance of the brewers, the barley had been here a little earlier, so as to have growers, and the Bishops-[laughter] held evenly the scales of justice between and this triple alliance seems at this the brewers and the farmers, and I hope, moment to be rather shaky. [Laughter.] before the end of this Debate, he will The hon. and gallant Member for Shrop- advise the agricultural interest whether shire said that they had always stood by this Bill is for their good or not, because, the brewers. I believe that to be true, of course, his opinion upon that matter and he warned them that if the brewers will carry great weight with the agriculdid not stand by them it might be the tural interest in the vote that they will worse for them. Yes, but I think he give. ["Hear, hear!"] There has rather fails to measure the power of the been a very strong opinion among the brewers. [Cheers.] I can assure him farmers of England that the Pure Beer that he and his interest are not nearly Bill would be an advantage to the barley as strong as the brewers in this country, growers of this country, and we should and if they come to measure swords with like to have the official opinion of the the brewers, the brewers will defeat Agricultural Department on that subthem--["hear, hear!"]-and therefore ject. I should say that the Agricultural he is, I am afraid, at their mercy on Department exists very much for such this question. He warned the House, a purpose as that, and therefore when and I think very wisely, not to flirt or the Minister for Agriculture has incoquet with this Bill, as had been done formed us of the view of the Government on political platforms throughout the as to whether this Bill will be an advancountry. That is perfectly true. We tage or a disadvantage to the barley know the part the Pure Beer Bill played growers of England we shall be assisted in the last election. ["Hear, hear!"] in this Debate. ["Hear, hear!"] But he also gave what I think was rather There is another Member of the Governa singular warning to his friends around ment whose opinion I think I can forecast-the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Chancellors of the Exchequer have no prejudices whatever upon this subject; it is immaterial to them of what ingredients beer is made. [Laughter.] The only question with them is how much money they are sure to get out of any proposal, and that, I venture to say, will be the point of view from which the Chancellor of the Exchequer will regard the subject to-day. An hon. Member opposite has recommended the farmers to go back to the old malt duty, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer will, doubtless, state whether he has come to any definite opinion on that point. But whether he gets his money from the malt tax or the extract, his governing consideration in the matter will be the amount of money he will receive. Under present arrangements he gets a great deal more than he

him.

He said :

That

"You pledged yourselves to the Pure Beer Bill throughout the country, but if you are only convinced by the arguments of the brewers I strongly advise you not to vote for it." [Laughter and “Hear, hear!"] is a very comfortable doctrine-["hear, hear!"--because you can obtain the advantage of pledging yourselves to the Pure Beer Bill at the election, and then, when you come to this House, if you take the advice of the hon. and gallant Member, you need not vote for it. ["Hear, hear!"] That seems to me to be the convenient principle upon which the alliance between the brewers and the agricultural interest can be maintained. This question involves some considerations to which I do not think sufficient attention has been paid. I suppose before we have done the opinion of the Government on this Bill Sir William Harcourt.

would get out of the malt tax, and he certainly will not go back to the malt tax unless a sufficient amount is put on that tax to make up for what he would lose by sacrificing the present system. ["Hear, hear!"] I venture to think, therefore, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is the only impar.ial man in the House on the subject of this Bill. ["Hear, hear!"] An observation was made by the hon. Member for Wandsworth which, I think, is a material point in the consideration of the subject. The hon. Member said that the English workman wanted to know where he could get the best beer and the beer that was suited to his taste. We have heard a great deal in the course of the Debate about particular tastes for beer, and it has been said that the brewer brews for the tastes of those whom he supplies. I am not quite certain that there is any strong guarantee for that, because in order that a man might be able to get the best beer or the beer that he likes he ought to have a choice between one house and another. But that is not the case now. ["Hear, hear!"]

of a glass of beer remains the same, and I know of no other article to which that condition of things would apply. That is due, of course, to the absolute monopoly which the licensing system gives to the brewer in this respect, and, therefore, he can brew exactly as he pleases. The consequence of that is that any drop which takes place in the price of barley or hops redounds exclusively to the benefit of the brewer with the exception of such part as the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the day might be able to extract from it.

MR. USBORNE said that during the Crimean War an extra 10s. was put upon malt, and the price of beer was not raised.

*SIR W. HARCOURT: The Crimean War was some time ago. [Laughter.] When the additionl 6d. of duty was put upon beer the brewers declared that they were likely to be ruined, but I ventured to point out that the extra profits which have been made by them in consequence of the fall in the prices of material have been three times, nay, four times, more than what they lost by the imposition of the extra tax. I will increase that figure now, and say that in another 12 months they will have gained five or six times what they have lost by the tax through the fall in the price of material. ['Hear, hear!"]

I know parts of the country where for distances of 20 miles every free public house has disappeared. Therefore, the working man has not a choice and cannot get the particular beer he may wish. He has to take whatever beer the brewer chooses to provide, and consequently the whole of that argument COLONEL KENYON-SLANEY : I falls to the ground. There are only a think that the argument used at the certain number of public houses under time was that the price of barley was the existing licensing system, and the likely to fall in consequence of the imbrewer if he has capital enough gets position of the tax. That statement has possession of the whole of them, and, been only too amply verified. having got possession of them, he sup- *SIR W. HARCOURT: No, I think plies exactly that beer which suits his that was said to be in consequence of purposes and his pocket best, and he monometallism: [Laughter.] This adneed not consult the taste of his cus-ditional 6d. on the barrel of beer was tomers at all. ["Hear, hear!"] said to be a disadvantage equal to 2s. Another peculiarity of this trade is per quarter on barley. The hon. Genthat it is the only trade with which I tleman opposite thought it would be am acquainted in which the price of the removed by the present Government. article has no relation whatever to the We shall see what the Minister for

cost of the production. [Cheers.] If Agriculture says on that matter, and the price of malt or barley falls the price when the agriculturist gets a pure beer

Bill and gets the extra 6d. taken off, great majority of this House. But I if it is taken off, that will no doubt do think that what is wanted is some be a contribution to them, and we security against a monopoly of this dedo not know what the price of scription. The purchaser should have barley may then be. ["Hear, hear!"] the power of obtaining what he desires, In my opinion one of the most important and should not be at the absolute mercy questions that will have to be dealt with of a monopoly which is so powerful that in reference to this trade in liquor is the nothing can resist it. tied-house system, which has a far more *THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXmaterial bearing on the whole of this CHEQUER (Sir MICHAEL HICKS BEACH, subject and upon the relation of the Bristol, W.): The right hon. Gentleman trade to the consuming population than who has just sat down expressed surprise this Bill. The fact is that this gigantic that my right hon. Friend the President monopoly is passing every day into fewer of the Board of Agriculture had not adand fewer hands, and when you talk of dressed the House on the Bill now before the old taste of the English people for us. In that my right hon. Friend was beer, and when they had their home- only following the example-I think a brewed ale, that sentiment of the "nappy very good example of his predecessor ale" has entirely disappeared. ["Hear, in that office, when, under the late Govhear!" The trade is passing every day ernment, the right hon. Gentleman oppointo the hands of a few score of people, site took this subject into his charge, who have got hold, through the instru- instead of leaving it to the perhaps more mentality of the licensing system, of friendly hands of the Minister of Agrisuch a monopoly as never before existed culture of the day. [Laughter.] As in this country. There is no relation the right hon. Gentleman has said, a between the producer and the consumer Chancellor of the Exchequer, at any such as there is in other industries of the rate, ought to be impartial on this country, and this is a matter which will matter. He has first to think of his demand an early solution. ["Hear, revenue, and afterwards he has to think, hear!"] It is intolerable that, through I hope, to some extent of the interests the monopoly existing in the licensing that contribute it. But the right hon. system, it should be possible for people Gentleman showed an impartiality in who have an unlimited command of this matter to-day to which I cannot capital to engross a trade of this enor-pretend. He said something, in the first mous character, and to become absolute place, about the agricultural interest; masters of the whole situation as to the he said a good deal more about the material to be used and the quality of brewers, and what I gathered from his the article to be supplied. "Hear, speech was that he was impartially hear!" As to the Bill, I doubt hostile to both. [Laughter.] I confess whether it will accomplish much. First that that is not my position, and I do of all, there would be great difficulty in not think it was the position of the right enforcing the penalties. In the next hon. Gentleman himself when, ten years place, in spite of what the agriculturists ago, he held the office which I now have have expected in this matter, I doubt the honour to hold, for, when my hon. whether their hopes will be realised. It Friend the Member for Sudbury, in is certainly not with any desire to pre- 1886, introduced a Pure Beer Bill and vent them from having any relief they developed his case with with that genial can get that I should offer any opposition humour which the House always delights to the Bill. If I thought it would do in, the right hon. Gentleman, speaking them the least good I would strongly in his official capacity as Chancellor of support it. I certainly should not oppose the Exchequer, supported the Second the Bill from any fear lest the brewers Reading of the Bill. [Laughter.] should suffer. Their increase of profits hope in that action he was not influenced has been going on, not by tens of thou- by any idea of flirting or coquetting sands, not by hundreds of thousands, but either with the agricultural interest or by millions. Whether they are induced with the brewers. [Laughter.] But I to use cheaper materials-foreign barley really think there is great force in the or hop substitutes-is a matter of in- argument from sentiment in this matter. difference to myself, and probably to the The hon. Member for Suffolk, who sits Sir William Harcourt.

I

on the opposite side of the House, and of beer and the seller of beer shall who addressed the House as a supporter declare the material of which it is comof this Bill, told us that beer plays an posed, when it is composed of substances important part in all our social life. I which, though not malt or hops, are think even the right hon. Gentleman the assumedly wholesome. I confess that, Member for West Monmouthshire has personally, that is a principle with found that out by this time-[loud laugh- which I have very great sympathy, ter]-and I will venture to add that all precisely as the right hon. Gentleman the consumers of beer, to whatever class sympathised with it in 1886, and I do they belong, are anxious that their beer not know that, as a principle, there is should be pure, and that, in the minds anything in it of which the brewer and of many persons, and especially of the the retailer of beer need complain. I am inhabitants of the eastern counties, there quite convinced that there are many is a very strong belief that beer brewed kinds of beer brewed, perhaps from from malt and hops is in some way a maize, from rice, or from sugar, which better beer than that brewed from other are equally as wholesome as beer brewed substances. We surely can gather from malt and hops, and which many that from the speeches which have persons consider, like lager beer—which, been addressed to the House from I believe, is brewed wholly from rice that part of England to-day, for, with--to be even more palatable. If that out regard to the side of the House on be so, and if it be also true that the purwhich hon. Members sit, this Bill has chaser of beer will much more be guided been supported on that ground. In in his purchase by what he considers former days there was a doctrine which the goodness of the article rather than was very dear to the political economist the material of which it is composed, -the doctrine of caveat emptor. The then I really do not see what the brewer seller might sell any article he chose, or the retailer of beer can lose by deand the purchaser must take care of him- claring the wholesome materials which self in the purchase. But that doctrine compose their beer. But when I come is not popular now. In the matter of to the provisions of the Bill, I am coffee and in the matter of butter, Par- bound to say I find myself at considerliament has deliberately departed from it able difference with my hon. Friend who in order to secure to the purchaser that proposed the Bill. In the first place I if coffee be mixed with chicory or if think my hon. Friend has himself adbutter be mixed with anything else, the mitted that the title "adulteration person who sells articles so mixed shall absolutely misleading. ["Hear, hear!"'] declare it to the purchaser. Again, it He does not think so much of what is was only last Wednesday, with regard to properly called adulteration by the use the question of home and foreign meat, of deleterious articles as he does of the both being equally wholesome, that the use of other articles besides malt and House, by a very large majority, asserted hops, which are equally wholesome. the principle that the seller should de- Secondly, I cannot concur with him that clare whether he sold home or foreign in any fairness to the brewers, the use meat; and, therefore, when my hon. of the term "beer" could rightly be Friend the Member for Suffolk asks us, confined under a penalty to beer brewed as I understand, by his Bill to extend solely from malt and hops. ["Hear, that principle to the article of beer, he hear!"] As I have ventured to argue is, I think, making a request which, to the House, I believe that other beer at any rate, is not without precedent in is equally wholesome and equally palatthe legislation which has already been able, and it is quite certain that beer sanctioned by Parliament. ["Hear, brewed from other substances has been hear!" I do not gather that in the called beer for many years, and I do not course of this Debate much has been said think Parliament would have the right about the manufacture of beer from de- to disallow the title. More than that, leterious ingredients. It was, I think, I venture to suggest to my hon. Friend alleged that this was true with regard that, from my point of view as Chanto hop substitutes; but the main object cellor of the Exchequer, he would be of those who have brought forward this acting directly contrary to the interests Bill seems to be to secure that the brewer which I think he desires to protect if he VOL. XXXIX. [FOURTH SERIES.] G

is