MR. DILLON: I do not think that that is a reasonable request to make. The First Lord of the Treasury in opening the Debate on his new procedure proposals stated that he would always be anxious to consult the convenience of every section of the House. It can make no difference to the right hon. Gentleman what Irish Votes are taken to-night, and if it is convenient to us that the Vote for the Irish Chief Secretary should be put off to a later day, it can make no difference to the Govern

THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREA- MR. SWIFT MACNEILL (Donegal, SURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR, Manchester, S.) said, that the Vote for the Chief E.) If the hon. Gentleman can give us Secretary having been postponed, they something in the nature of an under- were about to enjoy a preliminary canter taking that if we agree to what he asks, and would see how the right hon. Gentlereasonable progress will be made with man could stand fire. He would comthe other Votes, I should be disposed to mence with the private secretaries to meet him. the Lord Lieutenant. He did not think that any official had so many secretaries as the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. He had a Chief Secretary and an Under Secretary and a secretary to that secretary and then he also had private secretaries. The theme was the State Steward-what were his duties? It was his duty to introduce partners to each other at dances, and to do that rightly was a very difficult thing in Dublin. Then there was the Master of the Horse. His position was an anomaly because he was master of nothing, there being no horses at the Viceregal Lodge. Then there was the THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREA- Surgeon of the Household. The At SURY: The hon. Gentleman is perfectly torney General for Ireland laughed-but right in saying that I announced my he ought rather to weep at this waste of intention to adopt and carry out the public money. What were the duties of policy of meeting the convenience of all this Surgeon of the Household? Why, sections of the House as far as I could; he felt the pulses of the young ladies and if the hon. Gentleman had on after they had been kissed by the Lord behalf of the Irish Members given me Lieutenant. Then came the Sergeant earlier notice that it was not convenient to take the Vote, I should not have put it down. However, perhaps the better plan would be to postpone it altogether.

ment.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

SUPPLY.

Considered in Committee.

[Mr. J. W. LowTHER in the Chair.]

CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DEPART-
MENTS ESTIMATES, 1896-7.

CLASS II.

Motion made, and Question proposed, 1. "That a sum, not exceeding £2,771, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1897, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Household of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland."

of the Riding House, and what did he do? who was he to teach riding? Was he to teach the castle clerks or the smart Under Secretaries how to ride their bicycles? Then there was the telegraphist at the Vice-Regal Lodge, who got 5s. a day. But the Lord Lieutenant spent very little time there, and therefore what was the use of this telegraphist, who had nothing to do. The fact was, that, taking most of these posts together, the inference was irresistible that this contempible gingerbread Court was simply an impoverished landlords' asylum. Then the Lord Lieutenant had a Chaplain, so that the State had not only to provide for the Lord Lieutenant's body but for his soul. Fancy, £769 a year being paid to supply the Lord Lieutenant with the means of grace. He was sure that every official in the castle needed the means of grace more than ordinary persons did, and of course the Lord Lieutenant's soul was more important than those of the rest of the officials. He should always continue to denounce the establishment of a Castle Chaplain. The Lord Lieutenant did not use the Chapel Royal at all-when he went to

church he went as he himself did, to St. | office, Lord Charlemont thought, naturPatrick's Cathedral in Dublin, and he ally, that he would be retained in his was very glad to meet him there. Then position. He did not wish to say one there was the Castle Dean, and he word against Lord Cadogan-but when should be very pleased to see him treated he came into office, Lord Charlemont as an evicted tenant was. If public was told that other arrangements had money were to be spent in this manner, been made. When this became known he should like to see a Poet Laureate at Dublin Castle, he was asked if he had set up for Dublin. The whole thing was resigned. "Oh, no!" said Lord part of a vile system of corruption. Not Charlemont, "I was dismissed because one of the gentlemen to whom he had I was too much of a Home Ruler to referred could state honestly that they satisfy them." [Cries of "Oh !"] Of did a day's work. The money which course Lord Charlemont was a genuine was paid in this way was absolutely Tory, but he had been too much of a thrown away on unproductive labours. gentleman to embarrass Lord Crewe, and It was rather a remarkable fact, and one he had, for this reason, he maintained, that should be recollected, that although been dismissed as an act of vengeance. they were popularly supposed to give He begged, therefore, to move the reductheir sanction to every farthing of money tion of the Vote by £413 13s. 4d., the spent on the public service, if Parlia- amount of the Comptroller's salary. ment did not meet next year or the year *MR. MICHAEL DAVITT (Mayo, after two-thirds of the revenue would be S.) asked what service the present Compcollected by different Acts of Parlia- troller had rendered to justify his salary ment, and one of the anomalies of the being increased this year by 8d. system was that they were discussing MR. FLYNN (Cork, N.) said the the retinue and service of a gentleman Comptroller's salary under Sub-head A whose position they could not themselves was £413 13s. 4d., but it was worked discuss. He thought, however, that he out as £414. knew a way of discussing it when the Chief Secretary's salary came before them. The Comptroller of the Household did not differ from the 17 other MR. JOHN DILLON (Mayo, E.) potentates; he did nothing, and got a asked the right hon. Gentleman the salary for doing it. But there was a Chief Secretary to tell them why Lord certain matter of a most shocking nature Charlemont had been dismissed from his connected with the appointment of the position. By the Amendment they depresent Comptroller which he wished to sired to call attention to this question, bring to the notice of the Committee. and to ascertain whether it was the fact Although the Comptroller of the House- that these offices, which ought to be hold was practically appointed at entirely removed from Party feeling, pleasure, it was a well recognised fact had been, in the present instance, that he was a fixture so long as he dis- dragged into Party feeling in a most discharged his little duties with propriety. graceful way. The late Comptroller, Colonel Caulfield, MR. GERALD BALFOUR said, the now Lord Charlemont, had discharged hon. Member for South Donegal had his duties with the utmost propriety and twice quoted the maxim, De minimis non ability, and was extremely and de- curat lex ; but if the law did not care servedly popular. He had been Comp- about small things, the hon. Members troller of Dublin Castle since 1868, and from Ireland did when they called athad held the office under no fewer than tention to a discrepancy of 6s. 8d. between 12 Vice-Royalties. Lord Charlemont, the Estimate and the actual salary of although pressed to do so by certain per- the Comptroller. They moved a reduction sons, did not resign his Comptrollership in the salary of the Comptroller on the when Lord Crewe became Lord Lieutenant. When he refused to do so he was on the eve of being elected an Irish representative Peer, but his name was then withdrawn from the election. When the present Lord Lieutenant came into

MR. GERALD BALFOUR said, there was no increase, £414 was the sum in both years.

ground that Lord Charlemont no longer held the office. As far as he was aware, Lord Charlemont never was Comptroller, but was State Steward. ["No, no!"] Well, this was a small matter. The real charge was that Lord Charlemont

was dismissed from his post on political they did care about was that the House grounds; and to that operation he gave and the public should understand the an emphatic contradiction. Of four game that was played during the Viceofficers of the Household before Lord royalty of Lord Crewe. It was Cadogan became Viceroy, three had been notorious that there was organised retained. The offices were entirely in against the representative of the Queen the gift of the Lord Lieutenant, and a system of boycott which would have when he went the Household officers led to representation if it had been went with him. They might be reap-organised against a landgrabber. The pointed, and all that Lord Cadogan had object was to induce him to resign, which done was that he had not reappointed he refused to do. Such proceedings Lord Charlemont. He would state un- were inconsistent with the Lord Lieuhesitatingly that the non-reappointment tenant being the representative of the had absolutely nothing to do with any Queen. For one, he was opposed to the political question whatsoever; and he abolition of the Lord Lieutenancy, bemust ask the hon. Member for South cause it was a mark and sign of the inDonegal, unless he produced some evi- dependence of Ireland, although, under dence to the contrary, to accept that the Lord Lieutenancy it had at present assurance. He did not understand the worst government in Europe. So where political motive could come in. long as there was a Lord Lieutenant it The services of three gentlemen had was admitted that Ireland was entitled been continued. In the fourth case the to separate Government from Great charge made was absolutely unfounded. Britain. But measures ought to be MR. SWIFT MACNEILL said, he taken to secure that the Lord Lieutenant would accept the assurance of the right was a true representative of the Queen, hon. Gentleman; of whom he believed and not a Party politician and a Party that he knew very little about the trans-hack. Nothing, however, was to be action; but he could not withdraw one gained by continuing the Debate, and word of what he had said. The appoint- he would suggest that they should now ment was technically made by the Lord come to a Division. Lieutenant, but practically by the Government, and, having discharged the duties efficiently since 1868, Lord Charlemont first heard that he was superseded from a letter read out to him by Lord Crewe on board ship. Efforts had previously been made to induce him to vacate the place, in order the more effectually to carry out the boycott MR. JOSEPH A. PEASE (Northumagainst Lord Crewe. To a reporter who berland, Tyneside) said, that while he interviewed his Lordship at his residence was prepared to accept the statement of in Tyrone, he said, It is ridiculous to the Chief Secretary, it must be obvious say I am a Home Ruler," because he that there was some reason why Lord did not and he would not have been Charlemont was not reappointed. The Comptroller of Dublin Castle if he had most likely one was that he accepted the been a Home Ruler; and his Lordship position of Comptroller under the late added, “I am too much of a Home Liberal Government, that he had been Ruler to suit them," meaning, of to some extent boycotted by the ascourse, that he was too much of a gen-cendancy party in Ireland, and when tleman. [Laughter.}

MR. DILLON said, it would not be a matter to be much ashamed of if Irish Members did not know or care who was Comptroller at Dublin Castle, but it was amusing that the Chief Secretary had been mistaken, as he was on the evidence of "Thom's Directory for 1895," which gave Viscount Charlemont as Comptroller of Dublin Castle. What Mr. Gerald Balfour.

COLONEL SAUNDERSON (Armagh, N.) said, that Lord Crewe signalised his arrival by refusing to receive two deputations.

*THE CHAIRMAN said, that question could not be discussed on an Amendment to the Vote for the salary of the Comptroller.

they came back to power they knew at Dublin Castle that things would not work smoothly if Lord Charlemont were reappointed.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR said it was obviously unreasonable that they should be asked to state why Lord Charlemont was not reappointed. There might have been a thousand reasons. But he could assure the Committee that

it was not because he had served under MR. DUNBAR BARTON (Armagh, Lord Crewe. He gave the hon. Mem Mid) believed that, if Lord Charlemont ber his positive assurance that that was were consulted, he would contradict not the motive, and asked him to every one of the reasons suggested by accept it. hon. Members opposite for his not being *SERJEANT HEMPHILL (Tyrone, N.) reappointed. Other members of Lord said, it was conceded that Lord Charle- Crewe's household had been reappointed, mont was Comptroller under successive and why should it be said that Lord Lord Lieutenants, representing different Charlemont was not reappointed because shades of politics, from 1868. He might he served under Lord Crewe ? Hitherto be permitted to say that Lord Charle- Nationalist Members had complained of mont never allowed his politics to inter- the absence of change in the staff at fere with his duty, and discharged the Dublin Castle, and the reappointment functions of his office in a manner which of "the old gang.' The hon. Member gave general satisfaction to Dublin for South Donegal was mistaken in the society. There was an old saying post reasons he had suggested for Lord hoc ergo propter hoc. It might be that Charlemont's being no longer Compit applied in this case. To the amaze- troller, and he believed that would be ment of all who had lived in Dublin for the opinion of every one in Ireland years, and knew how popular Lord acquainted with the matter. Charlemont had been, when Lord Cado- MR. J. C. FLYNN (Cork, N.) regan became Viceroy, Lord Charlemont gretted that he could not accept the dissuddenly disappeared, and was not reclaimer of the Chief Secretary about appointed. Technically he might not Lord Charlemont. The circumstantial have been dismissed, but did the right evidence in the matter was too strong, hon. and learned Member for Dublin though they could not furnish actual University doubt that Lord Charlemont proof. Lord Charlemont was "sent to was not reappointed or was dismissed Coventry." Nine-tenths of the people because he had not led the way in re- in Ireland were persuaded of two things fusing to serve under Lord Houghton ? -that Lord Crewe was socially boycotted MR. E. CARSON (Dublin Univer- because of his Home Rule opinions, and sity) I am certain he was not. Lord Charlemont was dismissed because he refused to take part in the boycott.

:

He

Question put, "That Item A (Salaries), be reduced by £413 13s. 4d., the amount of the salary of the Comptroller of the Household.

The Committee divided :-Ayes, 125 Noes, 200.-(Division List, No. 102.)

5;

*SERJEANT HEMPHILL said, it was a matter of general observation that, to squelch" Home Rule, those bitterly opposed to it, abstained from paying to Lord Houghton the respect which had always hitherto been paid to the representative of the Queen. [Nationalist cheers.] Because Lord Charlemont, who was a northern landlord and Peer, did not follow the example of other landlords and bigoted Tory politicians, Lord *MR. DAVITT felt it his duty to Cadogan did not reappoint him. lodge a protest against further waste himself would oppose, if it ever cropped of public money upon the household up, the abolition of the office of of the Lord Lieutenant. He failed Viceroy in Ireland, because the exist to see where his constituents or the ence of that office was essential to people of Ireland derived any benefit working out the principle of Home Rule from the continued existence of this and the establishment of an independent household. [Hear, hear!"]. From Legislature for Ireland. The discussion his point of view it was an institution of the Vote might, perhaps, be a hardship to the present Comptroller at Dublin Castle, but principle must be regarded, and the House had no other way of marking its disapproval of the want of respect shown to the late Viceroy, not only by the landlords, but every section of the Tory Party in Ireland.

for the breeding of flunkeyism in the public life of Ireland, and he should be going contrary to the wishes of his constituents and his own sense of public duty if he assisted in voting money for any such institution. If they added the salary of the Lord Lieutenant to the expenses of his household, close upon

who thought there ought not to be a Lord Lieutenant. If they could not get rid of the Lord Lieutenant directly, they might do so indirectly, and one step towards that would be to get rid of his salary and household. He therefore proposed to do himself the pleasure of voting with hon. Gentlemen opposite. [Irish cheers.]

£40,000 a year was thrown away in this manner, which might be much better spent if placed at the disposal of the Congested Districts Board to be used for carrying out works that would benefit the people. ["Hear, hear!"] Again, the existence of this household constituted a standing stigma upon the religion of the majority of the people of Ireland, for to-day, 70 years after MR. FLYNN said, he entirely agreed the passing of the Emancipation with his hon. Friends in deprecating the Act, the law forbade any man hold- enormous expense of this household, and ing the religious views of the majority in deprecating the waste of public money of the Irish people to be Lord Lieu- which was involved in its up-keep. He tenant of Ireland. ["Hear, hear!"] should be sorry to see the office of Lord He did not contend that a Catholic Lord Lieutenant abolished under present cirLieutenant would be any better than a cumstances. He looked upon it as a Protestant, nor was he objecting to a sign and symbol of the separate GovernProtestant holding that or any other ment in Irelandpublic position in Ireland. But what he had a right as a Catholic to protest against was, that this office should be continued and should represent a stigma and an insult to the religious convictions of the mass of the Irish people. For these two reasons he should not only vote against the grant of this money, but he would divide the Committee upon it as a protest against the continued existence of an institution which was neither useful nor ornamental, and which he thought ought to be abolished.

*THE CHAIRMAN said, the salary of the Lord Lieutenant was not on this Vote, and therefore the hon. Member could not go into that matter.

a

MR. FLYNN said, he found in the Vote a sum of £800 for the salary and allowances of the chaplain. He considered that this was not only a waste of public money, but also an anachronism, because nearly 30 years after the disestablishment of the Protestant Church in Ireland they had here a survival of it in an official form. It was most inconMR. G. MURNAGHAN (Tyrone, sistent with the Disestablishment Act Mid) said, he rose to join in the protest, that this office should be maintained. and he did so because of the action of Supposing a Lord Lieutenant was the Protestant occupant of that office appointed who was not a member during the last nine months. The of the Anglican form of worship. £40,000 spent on that institution would Supposing a Presbyterian, a Baptist, be much better utilised in helping the or а Methodist were appointed. industrious people of the country. Their It was intolerable enough that country was not in a position to throw Roman Catholic should be debarred from away any money; their people were in a the office of Lord Lieutenant, but it most depressed condition, and they had became a much more intolerable condistretched over Ulster miserable houses tion of things if they found that it would not fit for cattle, and yet they could not be practically impossible for any gentleget any assistance to have them put in man to be appointed who did not belong some presentable shape for human to the Anglican form of worship. If beings. He would invite the Govern- such a gentleman were appointed this ment to give this matter their serious office would be entirely useless. attention. It was rather a disgrace to would not make use of the services of the the liberality of the British Government Protestant chaplain to the country, or that, at this time of day, they should allow to remain upon the Statute-book an enactment which deprived the Catholic people of Ireland of the right to hold any office that might be held by any

man.

MR. DOUGLAS COGHILL (Stokeupon-Trent) said, he was one of those Mr. Davitt.

He

the reading clerk, or the organ blower, nor of any of the officials connected with the official form of worship. That portion of the Vote ought certainly to be dispensed with. If there were vested interests in connection with this appointment, he contended it would be quite easy to buy off the chaplain and the