*THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Oh, yes. I understand my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House will let the discussion be taken on Thursday, but he will state that. DR. TANNER said that more money was to be spent on Scotland in connection with the agricultural interest than was to be spent on Ireland. That was manifestly unfair. 1. Resolved :— TEA. Tea shall continue to be charged, levied, and "That the Duty of Customs now payable on paid on and after the first day of August, One thousand eight hundred and ninety-six, until the first day of August, One thousand eight thereof into Great Britain or Ireland (that is to hundred and ninety-seven, on the importation : Tea the pound ." Four Pence. because it really does not arise at the I CUSTOMS DUTY ON BEER. 2. Resolved : "That, in addition to the Duties of Customs payable on and after the first day of July, One thousand eight hundred and ninety-six, on Beer imported into Great Britain and Ireland, there shall be charged, levied, and paid on and after that day the Duties following (that is to say) : In the case of Beer called or similar to Mum, Spruce, Black Beer, or Berlin White Beer were For every thirty-six gallons where Not exceeding one thousand two Exceeding one thousand two ... In the case of every description of where the worts thereof were £ s. d. 020 0 24 006 *SIR W. HARCOURT: I think that what the right hon. Gentleman proposes is and so in proportion for any difference in reasonable. The tea and beer Resolu- gravity.”—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.) tions and the other minor Resolutions might be taken to-night. It has always been usual to reserve one Resolution, at least, on the Budget night, and I understand the right hon. Gentleman reserves the Income-tax Resolution. That would be a very proper arrangement. MR. LOUGH supposed the right hon. Gentleman would give them that other opportunity for discussion. EXCISE DUTY ON BEER. 3. Resolved :- "That in addition to the Duty of Excise payable on and after the first day of July, One thousand eight hundred and ninety-six, in respect of Beer brewed in the United Kingdom, there shall be charged, levied, and paid on and after that day : For every thirty-six gallons of worts of a specific gravity of one thousand and fifty-five *MR. J. M. MACLEAN (Cardiff) said, he desired to refer to an attack made upon him in his absence by the hon. Member for Battersea (Mr. Burns) in reference to the employment of Lascars and Seedee boys on British mail steamers. The hon. Member said he claimed his (Mr. Maclean's) vote because of an election placard issued during the election at DR. TANNER (Cork, Mid.), moved Cardiff, which pledged him, if returned, that progress be reported. THE SECRETARY TO THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. T. W. RUSSELL, Tyrone, S.), appealed to the hon. Member not to persist in the motion, on the ground that the Bill was entirely non-contentious. The hon. Member for South Shields had an to endeavour to secure the employment of British sailors on British ships. He did not want to defend that placard, and all he now had to say was that the employment of so many foreign sailors in the British Mercantile Marine was a serious matter that ought to engage the attention of Parliament. But that was quite distinct from the question of the Amendment on the Paper in relation to employment of Lascars on mail packets. it, but he had been satisfied with the He would not wish his bitterest enemy arrangements made, and would not pro- to undertake stoke-hole duty on Red Sea ceed with it. Moreover, the Bill would steamers. As to the employment of be the means of saving the country Lascars, the hon. Member for Battersea many thousands a year, and he hoped had quite misrepresented the case the hon. Member for Cork would regarded what he (Mr. Maclean) had said allow it to proceed. at Cardiff. The people of Cardiff did DR. TANNER declined to withdraw not judge him by a few election squibs on the walls, they had known him LOCAL GOVERNMENT (DETERMINA- as his Motion. Committee report progress; to sit and his opinions on every question of again to-morrow. foreign and domestic policy for 15 years, and as regarded the question of the employment of Lascars, his record was perfectly clear and strong. This hare was first started by the hon. Member for Middlesbrough, who went to Cardiff and opened a campaign, attacking Lascars, and showing such colossal ignorance of the most elementary facts of To- the situation that he spoke of these sailors as foreigners, whom it was disgraceful to employ under the British flag. Indignant at that speech, he (Mr. PUBLIC OFFICES (SITE) BILL. Second reading deferred till morrow. TELEGRAPHS (ADVANCES). Committee thereupon deferred till MacLean) took the earliest opportunity to-morrow. of addressing a public meeting at Cardiff. must be a matter of serious concern to every one who had at heart the social condition of our sailor population, and must appeal also to every man who had any regard for the military and naval position of the country from a strategical point of view. The hon. Member for Cardiff said he would be sorry to see any countryman earning his living by stoking in the Red Sea. He challenged the hon. Member that, if he went down to Cardiff and at a mass meeting of sailors put to them the question whether they would prefer hanging about Cardiff waiting for ships to stoking in the Red Sea, he would find that the sailors, to their credit, would far prefer the latter. The hon. Member The speech he made was published in the favour of "British labour on British newspapers and afterwards in pamphlet ships." He therefore claimed the hon. form by the Conservative Association, Member as in favour of the exclusion of and circulated by tens of thousands. Lascars. He did not think the hon. That speech being made he was never Member had strengthened his position by asked any questions on the subject, and his qualified denial. He did not deny the electors of Cardiff accepted his views. the authenticity of the placard, and he It would have been disloyal to India to hoped he should not deny the authorship. take any other view. He had made [Mr. MACLEAN was understood to deny many voyages to India on steamers the authorship of the placard.] Out manned by Lascars. Those men did not of our mercantile marine, supposed approach in training and discipline the to number 200,000 men, there were, men of the British Navy, who were pro- according to Lord Brassey, an undoubted bably the finest specimens of humanity authority on marine matters, not more the world could show; but they were than 55,000 British-born sailors. That excellent sailors in point of discipline and capacity for doing their work, and he meant to say that ships navigated by Lascars were as well handled as most of the ships in the Mercantile Navy of England. These Lascars belonged to a seafaring race, who for centuries had been daring and skilful sailors. These men crossed the Indian Ocean and Red Sea long before England was heard of in India. England had taken possession of India, and were they to deny these men the right of earning their own living under the British flag? They were as much entitled as our own sailors were to do that. It would be a very shameful thing to prevent them doing so. What was suggested by the hon. Member spoke about the fitness of the Lascars as for Battersea would be a very short-seamen. He did not depreciate them. But sighted policy. What would be the he held that the average British sailor result of driving these men out of em- was the best man at sea in times of ployment? The Indian Government difficulty and danger. One of the most would be bound to protect its own people creditable things he ever heard of about by subsidising steamers for the special the British boy was that the day after service of the Indian Government, and the Victoria went down he saw ten employ Lascars, and thus we should times the number of London boys outside lose the carrying trade which at present the recruiting offices of the Royal Navy we enjoyed. He could not allow in Spring Gardens than he had ever seen a slur to be cast on him on this before during his daily walks for eight question. He expressed his regret years to Spring Gardens as a Member of that any Member of that House the County Council. That showed that should have brought forward these in tolerant views against the people of India at the very time they were employing Indian troops to fight their battles in Central Africa, and they hoped soon in the Soudan. the spirit for the sea was reviving, and it was their duty to encourage it by providing places in ships for those boys. He believed that since Friday, when this subject was before the House, the Secretary to the Treasury had inquired into *MR. JOHN BURNS (Battersea) said the truth or otherwise of his allegations, he was not going to be led away by the and that the right hon. Gentleman's excellent red herring of the hon. Gentle- unsatisfactory reply on that occasion man on whom he had thrown no slur. was due to the fact that, as he had to He had seen from his bedroom window, do two men's work in the House-to when at Cardiff, on an election placard which he (Mr. Burns) objected on the issued by the then candidate now the principle of one man one job-he was Member, that the hon. Member was in ignorant of the facts. MR. HANBURY: I beg the hon. English sailor, but he objected to capitalist Member's pardon. I was not ignorant steamships using the low wages of the of the facts at all. Lascar, his ignorance and inability to combine, in order to deprive England of 7,000 or 8,000 of the best reserve men she could possibly get, he objected to a company subsidised by national money and employing a disproportionate number of foreigners and turning English sailors on to the streets. *MR. BURNS said he was sorry, and he would now have to prove that the right hon. Gentleman was ignorant of the facts, which he had been under the impression was due to the circumstance that, as he was not directly connected with the Post Office, he was not well posted in the proportion of Lascars to *MR. LEWIS McIVER (EdinBritish sailors employed by the Penin- burgh, W.) observed that the hon. sular and Oriental Company. It was Member for Battersea disclaimed any not fair of that Company to employ desire to wholly oust the Lascars, but nearly 7,000 Lascars in the vessels for in that case it became a question of which they were receiving a subsidy how many were to be ousted in the from the Government at the rate of interests of British seamen. It then £1,000 per day for the carrying of the became a question of degree and then a mails, and that, apart from the Euro- question of who was to settle the degree, pean officers, they should not have, and upon what principle it was to be side by side with those Lascars, settled. If it was to be a question of a single British able seaman, or a efficiency, who were better able to settle single able seaman who was a stoker. that question than those engaged in the That was a disproportionately large trade? if it was a question of money, number of foreigners as compared to who ought more properly to settle it Englishmen; but he was not asking to than those who had to pay the money? have the proportion reversed. He only The Treasury and the Post Office had asked the Secretary to the Treasury to adopted and approved the present promise a sympathetic consideration of system, and had accepted a contract the case. Mr. Williamson, of Liverpool, which was based upon that system. one of the best authorities on the mer- The hon. Member for Battersea then cantile marine, said that the chairman shifted his ground and contended in the of the P. and O. Company told him alternative that if Lascars were to be that 5,000 British seamen were displaced employed on contract ships, they should in 1876 by foreigners; and everyone come under the Fair Wage Resolution. knew that it was simply because the That was a very interesting development, British sailor had got out of hand. and an unexpected expansion of the But that this unreliability now dis- theory of Fair Wage. By what appeared was shown by the fact that standard was the fair wage to be judged? there were English seamen and stokers Was the Lascar to be paid according to who had been continuously employed the standard of the British A.B., or by for five, ten and fifteen years on the the Bombay standard? It was a dangerous White Star, Cunard, Orient, and other proposition, because why should it not be lines. He simply claimed that British extended to the Bombay millowner, who sailors should have an equal and fair should be called upon to pay his men at treatment. His case was a reasonable the same rate of wages as the Lancashire one, and he had rather under-estimated it. millowner. He suggested that the supHe claimed that it was not fair for us porters of the fair wage theory should be to add to our naval defence expenses, to content with what they had got. Some be continually talking about the advan- hon. Members might have inferred that tage of a Naval Reserve, to spend the P. and O. Co. was a powerful corporamillions of money in attracting men to tion, largely supported by Members of the Army and the Navy, and when these the House, who had an interest in the men had served their time, then we Company, and that it had thus should deprive them of the opportunity been able to secure a profitable conof being more effective Army and Navy tract, to the exclusion of competent reserve men by saying that Lascars and rivals. He could not conceive a other foreigners should be employed to more ludicrously inaccurate statement their exclusion. He did not want the of the actual facts. The P. and O. Co. mantle of Protection thrown over the had the contract because they alone, in the estimation of the Department, there was bad weather in the Channel were able to supply guarantees of and the Bay of Biscay. The P. and O. efficiency and price. There was no Company had also an Australian and shipping company in the country in a China service, and on that service British position to replace it. The appeal sailors ought to be employed in greater on behalf of the British seaman had numbers. If the Caledonia, to give an been unfairly twisted into an attack on example, were wanted suddenly for the a company which had served the Post naval purposes of the country, a comOffice for a long series of years and pletely new crew would have to be suphad never lost a mail bag, which per-plied for her, for none of her present formed 24 millions of miles of mail con- crew were Royal Naval Reserve men. tract every year, and which was at Almost all the crew were natives of present the only company competent to India, the only white men employed fulfil the work. on board the steamer being the THE SECRETARY TO THE TREA- officers, quartermasters and stewards. SURY (Mr. R. W. HANBURY, Preston) The P. and O. Company had also been said that originally there was an idea transporting soldiers to India and that some hon. Members wished to drive Africa, and the steamers by which that the Lascars out of this trade altogether; work was done were also in the hands but the discussion had cleared up the point of Lascars. For such work they were at least that this was not the intention not efficient. He wanted the Secretary of the hon. Member for Battersea. to the Treasury to see, when the new The only substantial question was how far the House of Commons' Resolution touched a case of this kind, and he did not believe that it touched the case at all. It would be stretching the Resolution to an extreme point if they were to apply it to cases in which subsidies were given to railway companies or steam packet companies of this kind. The point as now raised by the hon. Member for Battersea was a very small one. It was merely a question of degree. The hon. Member based the claim for the employment of more British seamen on these packets on two grounds, the first being that England paid a very large proportion of the subsidy. The other and far more important ground was that we ought to have upon these subsidised boats men who could be of use to us for naval purposes. He would bear these points in mind, and when the opportunity arose he would consider how far it would be possible to provide for the employment of a few more British seamen on these ships. contracts came in for China, India and Australia, that the conditions should be such that other companies would be able to compete, and not such as to give the P. and O. Company a monopoly. The Orient Company had now one half of the Australian service; and if the India and China trade were put up separately, it would give a fair opening to other companies. He objected to such a large subsidy being paid to the P. and O. Company, because he did not think that they required it. All the important correspondence between this country and India, and the colonies, was done by telegraph, and there were plenty of large steamers constantly running to India, China and Australia, which would take letters at a less rate. MR. BURNS said that, in consequence of the sympathetic answer of the right hon. Gentleman, and the expression of his intention to communicate with the proper authorities, he did not propose to put the House to the trouble of a Division, because he believed this would be made a Party question and the sailor would not benefit. Resolution agreed to.— DR. CLARK asked whether the Treasury would consider the advisability of modifying the existing contract with the P. and O. Company in the sense that had been indicated, or whether the *MR. C. HARRISON (Plymouth) said, change which his hon. Friend advocated he desired to call attention to the inwould only be effected when the present equitable method pursued in the assesscontract terminated. From Brindisi to ment and rating of Government property. Bombay a Lascar was probably as effi- Upon the discussion of a Resolution on cient a man as a British seaman, but the subject in 1874, the Chancellor of between England and Brindisi the Lascar the Exchequer read a statement of the was not so useful a man, especially when principles upon which Government VOL. XXXIX [FOURTH SERIES.] 3 E |