1

libraries, which it was very important to of a large amount of Consols, increased keep together. In conclusion he wished the price of Consols, and increased it to say that he believed that the line the when, in order to reduce the National Government were taking in connection Debt, the Government were in other with agriculture would be exceedingly directions also purchasers of Consols. popular in the country. In Norfolk cer- That it seemed to him raised a very tainly the inhabitants of the towns would serious question. It could not be doubted rejoice to hear that something was to be that the interest paid was far too high. done to improve the condition of the The Chancellor of the Exchequer said greatest of all our industries, for they they could only now invest to realise knew that the unemployed labourers of slightly less than 2 per cent. But on rural districts were being driven into the Consols they could not get 2 per cent. towns, and they knew also that the more If they made allowance for the reduction agriculture flourished the better every in the rate of interest in 1903, and for trade in the country flourished. the redemption of the debt at par in 1923, it would be found that the present rate did not exceed 21 per cent. Then the working expenses of the Savings Bank Department were from 8s. 6d. to 9s. per cent., so that the net return was only about 32s. 6d. or 33s., and yet on that basis they paid depositors £2 10s. per cent. That was a very unsound and dangerous policy. It was true that the account showed a surplus, but that was purely a paper surplus, obtained by taking Consols at their market value to

*MR. T. P. WHITTAKER (York, W.R., Spen Valley) said the hon. Member had referred to the straits in which the landlords and the agricultural interests were placed.

MR. HOARE: I said landlords, farmers, and labourers.

the

*MR. WHITTAKER: Yes, but hon. Member specially referred to the great straits the landlords were in. [Ministerial cries of "No, no!"] He did not understand hon. Members to contend that the landlords were not in day. But those Consols would be paid great straits—and he himself believed off at par in 1923, and that represented they were. He was going to point out a very serious loss, and if, by the high that in the hon. Member's view this pro- rate of interest, they continued to attract posal would not give relief to the land- deposits at the same rate that they were lords, while he and those around him being attracted at now, the loss must be believed that it would relieve the land- very serious when the redemption took lords and that it was part of the policy place. The large London Banks put of taxing the manufacturing districts of Consols in their balance sheets at 90; this country for the purpose of enabling and the Government ought to put them the landlords to obtain their rents. He at no more than 100, the price at which gathered from the statement of the they would be redeemed. The large purChancellor of the Exchequer that the chases which for redemption purposes position of the landlords was not quite the Government had necessarily to make, so bad as had been represented in some as well as the purchases of the Postal quarters. They had been told, for Department were continually sending up example, that the Death Duties on 22 the price of Consols. It was very satismillions out of 25 millions in respect of factory to our pride to see Consols at realty were put down in a lump sum, 111, but it was a rather expensive luxury although they might have been spread to the nation. The Government were over a considerable period of time. As now by their policy really forcing up the to the agricultural labourer he ventured price against themselves. He was afraid to suggest that a free breakfast table that the high price which had to be paid would give him far more relief than the for Consols for debt redemption might proposed reduction of rates. But he soon raise an outcry against the debt rose especially to call attention to the redemption itself-which in his judgment rate of interest on deposits in the Post would be a very serious evil. He was Office Savings Bank. He felt that the strongly of opinion that the Government high rate of interest on those deposits, should lower the interest on deposits in and the large amount of deposits which the Post Office Savings Banks, and lower that high rate attracted, resulting as it it very substantially indeed. Such a did in the purchase by the Government step might cause withdrawals and Mr. Samuel Hoare.

:

The

might depress the value of Con- he came to know a little more about regisols, and thus place the Government mental life, he found that the man he in a little difficulty. He did not abused in the day of his ignorance was think it would do more than check the really his best friend. No doubt a somecontinual rise, but even if it did, the what similar experience was awaiting the longer such an operation was put off the hon. Gentleman opposite, and with his greater would be the difficulties, because increasing knowledge there would be a until it was done Consols would continue diminution of his disparaging remarks to advance in price. No one could tell with regard to landowners. In reply to what might happen in time of war or the remarks upon agriculture which had distress. Consols might fall to 95 or been made by the hon. Member for East even to 90, and if they did, the balance- Mayo, who led some portion of the Irish sheet of the Government would look Nationalist Party during this Session— very curious. The Chancellor of the [Mr. DILLON "The whole "]-the hon. Exchequer referred with satisfaction to Member said that he led the whole of the fact that the amount of the unfunded the Nationalist Party, and, therefore, he debt had been very materially reduced; congratulated him upon a position in that but the liability on Post Office deposits House which he had not been able to was a very large unfunded debt which assume in Ireland. The hon. Member the Government owed. He understood had spoken disparagingly of the agriculthe late Chancellor of the Exchequer tural provisions of the Budget as far as to state that when he was in office, a they affected the Irish agriculturist. Departmental Committee was appointed, He could not understand how the hon. and he gathered from that that the Gentleman could assume such a position Treasury was fully alive to the difficulty as that. The hon Gentleman spoke of and danger. He hoped the present agricultural depression in Ireland as Chancellor would face the problem soon being far worse than in England. and would deal with it. The suggestion hon. Member knew very little about merely to limit the amount which could agriculture in England, but he himself be deposited at one time did not meet did know something about agriculture the case. The rate of interest should be both in England and in Ireland, and he reduced, so as to put the whole matter thought that the Irish agriculturist had on a sound and businesslike footing. considerably the best of the bargain as Any other proposal would merely touch matters stood at the present moment. the fringe of the question. But going beyond that he knew that there was a great deal more land in Ireland that was valuable from an agricultural view than there was in England, if the land in both cases were properly and zealously managed. Only the other day a Measure had been introduced into that House by the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Agriculture, which would operate more beneficially in favour of agriculture in Ireland than in England. Certainly, therefore, it was a peculiar position for the hon. Gentleman to take up when he opposed the Budget on the ground that Irish agricultural interests would not be benefited by it. The hon. Gentleman had entered a protest against the proposed Naval expenditure which hon. Members on the Government side of the House were not likely to forget, because if the hon. Gentleman were serious in what he had said he must be taken as inveighing against Measures which were proposed to be taken for the protection of the 3 D

COL. KENYON - SLANEY (Shropshire, Newport) said, that at the risk of being monotonous, he must join in the chorus of gratitude to the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the way in which he had treated the agricultural interest. His reason for rising was not only that, but also to answer to the best of his ability one or two speeches that had been made from the other side of the House. The speech of the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, naturally divided itself into two parts. The one relating to the subject with which the hon. Gentleman was familiar-namely, finance, and the other relating to agriculture, of which he knew little or nothing. The hon. Gentleman prefaced his speech by one or two disparaging remarks with regard to landowners, and his observations reminded him of the view usually taken by an ignorant recruit when he first joined his regiment, which was that the colonel was his worst enemy. When, however,

VOL. XXXIX. [FOURTH SERIES.]

interests of the Empire. Of course the make a split between borough and rural
remarks of the hon. Gentleman upon constituencies, and it might perfectly
that point were merely intended for well be that the larger cities and towns
platform consumption and to amuse the would not benefit directly from the pro-
Irish people. The hon. Gentleman had positions of this Budget-[Opposition
asked what had been done with the cheers-but when hon. Members oppo-
surplus, a full share of which he site had secured a Chancellor of the Ex-
demanded should go to Ireland. If he chequer who was able in any one Budget
rightly understood the proposals of the to touch the interests of every class in
right hon Gentleman the Chancellor of the country they would have produced
the Exchequer, Ireland would get her a sort of financial archangel which they
full share of the surplus for her agri- had not begun to breed at present. There
culture as compared with that which were, at all events, large boroughs whose
would go to English agriculture. The interests depended on the fortunes of the
hon. Gentleman went on to say, with the agricultural districts round them, and
usual sneer, that the present Government they were very directly interested in the
was benefiting by the action of their propositions of the right hon. Gentleman.
predecessors. When taunts of that kind There were, of course, industrial com
were levelled at hon. Members sitting on munities whom these Measures would not
the Government side of the House, it affect, but the great bulk of our rural
was only fair to remind hon. Members boroughs would be affected beneficially
opposite that the foundations of the by the suggestions which the right hon.
surplus appeared to have been laid when Gentleman had laid before them. He
the last Conservative Government ceased maintained that the interests of Irish
to hold office. He did not put that and English agriculture could not be
forward as a valuable argument by any divorced, and therefore protested against
means, but at all events it was a per- Irish Members opposing this Budget,
fectly fair retort to the remarks of the when it was universally approved by the
hon Gentleman. The hon. Gentleman agricultural interest in Great Britain.
having asked what had been done with
the surplus proceeded to echo the remarks
of the right hon. Gentleman the late
Chancellor of the Exchequer, and to
complain that no remission of taxation
had been made in favour of the working
classes under the provisions of the
Budget. If any hon. Gentleman ventured
to make such an assertion he would take
him down into the rural districts and ask
him to repeat that charge in the face of the "hear, hear!'']—and he doubted if
agricultural labourers. The fact was that they had ever listened to a more lucid
the proposals of the Budget would benefit explanation of a complicated subject.
in the first degree the labouring classes. When the right hon. Gentleman referred
He should have thought that hon. Mem- in grave language to a crisis which we
bers opposite would have known that it were approaching, when there would be
was a mistake to think that they could an increase of expenditure, and when
play upon the ignorance of the working we might reach the limits of direct taxa-
classes, His hon. Friend had referred tion, he had wondered whether that was
to the case of Guy's Hospital, and shown prophetic, and could not help thinking
how clearly, in cases such as that, his of a remarkable speech which was made
proposal would work directly for the by a colleague of the right hon. Gentle-
benefit of the working classes. Hon. man's the other day upon an Imperial
Members opposite seemed to have for- Zollverein. If they ever came face to
gotten the existence of the Friendly face with that crisis, and if there was a
Societies, which were large owners, in question of departing from principles
the aggregate, of property that would be which had become the tradition of all
affected and benefited by the suggestions Parliaments of the last half-century, he
of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. A hoped they would then have the assist-
very foolish attempt was being made to ance of the right hon. Gentleman.
Colonel Kenyon Slaney.

MR. R. B. HALDANE (Haddington) said the Chancellor of the Exchequer might no the the most eloquent speaker in that House, but there was no Member who was a more thorough Parliamentary man, or who had a more complete mastery of what the House of Commons liked. They had listened to a statement which was an admirable and perfect one from a Parliamentary point of view

He

1

could not help thinking, notwithstand | into operation under the Act of 1894, ing what the right hon. Gentleman said and he was glad to thank the right hon. about the extreme desirability of not Gentleman for propounding sound and embarking on new forms of expenditure, admirable financial views, not only tothat his practice was not quite equal to night, but also on previous occasions. his precept, for he proceeded to inform them that Her Majesty's Government were about to embark upon a wholly

new

DR. CLARK (Caithness) said, that while he concurred in what had been said on both sides of the House in referexpenditure of £2,500,000 ence to the clearness and ability of the £500,000 differential bounty to Volun- financial statement, he regretted he could tary schools, and £2,000,000, one in the not agree with what had been said as to current year, and £2,000,000 every year the fairness of the new proposals. They afterwards in the form of subsidies in were inequitable, and, indeed, this might the relief of rates. No one could realise well be described as a landlord's Budget. more keenly than he did the pressure felt It proposed to give the landlords £100,000 by the agricultural or landed interest; directly through the Land Tax, and inthey all sympathised with the difficulty directly £975,000 through the reduction in which it was placed; but there might of local rates; and this was going to be be other industries equally oppressed; done on the lines laid down by the Proand one could not help thinking it rather bate Duty Grants. He protested against rash to embark on this new expenditure this, and appealed to the sense of fairin relief of that industry, because it was ness of the right hon. Gentleman oppoevident that that £2,000,000 would not site because he had always been one of be forthcoming out of existing sources of the fairest men. His predecessor, when revenue, at all events, if our expenditure he first began the system, introduced a kept up to the level now reached. The clause by which one half of the Probate great fight would be over the grants for and Licence Duty would be paid over to Voluntary schools and in aid of rates; each county, to be used by the County the rest of the Budget did not raise any Councils. But immediately afterwards questions of principle. As to the Death the Scotch people, having used their Duties, the new proposals did not amount money not to reduce local taxation, but to much; and he was not quite sure he to have free education, a demand accurately apprehended the fourth of arose for free education in England, and these. In the case of works of art and it was granted, not from the Probate other objects of national interest, which Duty or the Property Duty alone, behe trusted would include valuable cause, as far as the terms went, England libraries, it was proposed that Estate paid more for property and less in direct Duty should be paid upon them only taxation than any other part of the when and so soon as there came into United Kingdom; but there was to be existence a person capable of disposing a grant of 10s. for every child that went of them, or who actually did sell these to school. The present Government objects, and that they would not be sub- were treating England, Scotland, and ject to aggregation. But suppose the case Ireland alike, and giving 10s. per head of a man who took advantage of this per child. With regard to Ireland the rule to declare that his pictures were not hon. Member for East Mayo was correct to be sold until two or three years after in saying Ireland had more agriculture his death. In that case there might be and less commerce than England. Where a sale, and duty be paid on the amount was the market for Irish produce but in realised, but the estate would have this country? Where the boon proposed escaped aggregation in respect of the pic- was wanted most it was least given. In tures. That would be making use of Scotland the system was different from the rule to escape the payment of full England. Until 50 years ago all the duty. [The CHANCELLOR of the Ex- taxes in Scotland were paid by the land. CHEQUER: "That would not be so."] lord. But by the Act of 1845 one half Of course it was impossible to discuss the were to be paid by the occupier and the matter without the text of the Bill. other by the landlord. By the Act of He was glad the Chancellor of the Ex 1888 the landord's rates were consolichequer had recognised the great financial dated. The Land Tax at the present value of the new system which came time was fixed by an Act passed two

centuries ago. It was made perpetual at | cheers on rising to reply, said: I really 4s. in the pound on a valuation of two feel I owe a debt of gratitude to hon. centuries ago. There were some poor Members on both sides of the House agricultural parishes in which the rate, for the far too kind and flattering obhe believed, was even as high as 4s. in servations made with respect to my the pound upon the actual rental. In financial statement. I have no greater some parishes, again, it was 1s. and 2s., wish than to discharge such work as I and in others it was as low as 1-12th have to do in a way that will commend and 1-16th of a penny in the pound. it to both sides of the House, and I They had parishes which had been poor am really very deeply grateful for what but which, owing to mineral and indus- has been said by the right hon. Gentletrial development had become rich, and man opposite and by many hon. Memwhich yet only paid 1-12th of a penny, bers who subsequently followed him. whilst other parishes which were formerly ["Hear, hear!"] There have been centres of the wool-growing industries, many suggestions made in the course of but which had now become poor, were this Debate to-night which I will carepaying on a grossly unfair assessment, fully bear in mind, particularly upon based upon their previous prosperity. the question of the Savings Banks As far as he understood it, the Govern- deposits. This matter has been referred ment wanted to prevent this unfair to by the hon. and learned Member for assessment of poor and purely agricul- Islington-to whom the country is tural parishes, which were not to pay greatly indebted for the care and more than 1s. in the pound upon the trouble he has taken in regard to present or Income Tax valuation. Some- Savings Banks-and also by the right thing could be said for that, but why hon. Gentleman opposite. I wish to they should not make rich parishes pay say that I never intended to lower the in the same proportion he failed to see. limit of the Savings Banks deposits, but Some rich parishes about London, un- the point I wished to press upon the affected by agricultural depression, where House had relation to the question of the Land Tax was a mere flea-bite, and the amount of interest we were paying, where the land rents were a hundred- and especially with regard to deposits fold greater than when this tax was above a certain amount. It is not imposed, were still only paying 1-12th necessary to go further into this matter of a penny in the pound. If they were until I am able to make some proposals going to lessen the tax in rural parishes to the House. I think that the because there had been depression in the general Debate has turned upon the value of land, why not increase it in question of the grant we propose to make urban parishes where there had been this out of the proceeds of the Estate Duty great appreciation of value? In any on personalty, amounting in the current change of this kind, the only thing to do year to £975,000, in aid of agriculture. was to make the Land Tax, like every That grant will be proposed to be alloother tax, payable upon the present cated in England, Scotland, and Ireland valuation. As the Debate would termi- according to Bills which will be presented nate for that night at 12 o'clock, he did to the House by my right hon. Friend not intend to prevent the Chancellor of the President of the Local Government the Exchequer replying to the different Board, by the Lord Advocate, and speeches, but he would notify the right by the Chief Secretary for Ireland, hon. Gentleman that when this question Complaint has been made that this is a came to be dealt with, he would require mere question of the position of the landto go much further than his proposals lords. I think it has been shown in the indicated in order to secure a fair taxa-course of the Debate that it is not now in tion of the land values in this country. the distressed districts of England a quesHe should be glad to see the Chancellor of the Exchequer so tackling the whole subject as to put the burden fairly on the agriculturists on the one hand, and on the great town landlords on the other.

*THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER, who was received with Dr. Clark.

tion of the position of the landlords at all. The real question is whether the agricultural labourers, at any rate in the south and east of England, are any longer to find employment in the cultivation of the land. ["Hear, hear!"] I do not want at all to argue the question to-night,