it strikes at the root of the Established | House. He did not quite see the force of Church throughout the whole of the United the objection to the whole system of pew Kingdom. That being the case, Sir, I trust, while this House will be ready to listen to any practical remedies which may be proposed for lessening the evils attendant upon the levying of church rates, that if they wish to maintain the principle of an Established Church, they will not countenance doctrines inconsistent with

it.

rents. He had not so much right to speak
upon that point as if he had been a mem-
ber of the Established Church; but he had
yet to learn that the churches in places
where there were no dissenting chapels (in
which the pew rent system most prevailed)
were more frequented by the poor than the
chapels were; and he did not believe that
the people abstained from attending a place
of worship merely because of a payment
being levied according to the circumstances
of the persons, which was the practice pur-
sued in dissenting chapels. With regard
to the Bill of the hon. and learned Gentle-
man (Mr. R. Phillimore) there were grave
objections to it, and although he might feel
those objections as a Dissenter, yet if he
were a Churchman he would feel their gra-
vity still more, because the hon. and learn-
cd Gentleman repudiated the nationality of
the Establishment. But there had been
another plan proposed with regard to church
rates. Hon. Members from Ireland would
remember that a church cess used to be
levied in that country, where the objection
to the tax was greater, because the pro-
portion of Dissenters from the Established
Church was larger. But the Government
abolished the church cess in Ireland, and
by the better management of church pro-
perty, and placing the funds in the hands
of a Commission, they provided for the
maintenance of the fabric of the Church.
Why was the same thing not done in this
country? The noble Lord said that what-
ever funds had accumulated in the hands
of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners in Eng-
land were required for the extension of spi-
ritual instruction in quarters where there
existed spiritual destitution.
He (Mr.
Bright) admitted that there was room for
the application of the existing funds in
that manner; but so long as enormous
sums were employed by the Commissioners
in providing gorgeous residences for the
members of the episcopal bench-far more
than, he believed, in the opinion of con-
scientious Churchmen themselves were ne-

MR. BRIGHT said, that the noble Lord had pointed out how the movers of both the propositions before the House had destroyed each other's arguments; but the noble Lord himself had not been always so consistent upon this matter as not to be in some degree obnoxious to the same charge as he had brought against these two hon. Members. If he recollected rightly in 1837 the noble Lord was a party to a proposition made in that House, which was precisely the same as the Motion now made by the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets; and in 1849 the noble Lord stoutly opposed the proposition which Sir W. Page Wood then made, which proceeded on the principle involved in the Bill of the hon. and learned Member for Tavistock (Mr. R. Phillimore); but to-night he objected altogether to the Motion of the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets, and said he was willing to admit a first reading of the Bill of the hon. and learned Member for Tavistock. It appeared that, upon this question, as upon some others, the noble Lord had not made much progress lately, for he seemed to suppose that the objections he had taken that night were so insurmountable, that the church-rate dispute must still remain open and unsettled. He (Mr. Bright) was glad, however, that this question had been brought forward, and the course which the debate had taken was gratifying, because it showed that the House, with the exception of the hon. Baronet below him (Sir R. H. Inglis), and the hon. and learned Gentleman who represented the other University, Mr. Wigram, was arriving at more rational views, and that this subject was becoming more sim-cessary, and far more than in his own plified. He was sorry that in the Universities, opinions which were now obsolete with most men, were still found to linger; and he believed that if this country had been governed upon the opinions prevalent in the Universities, it would have remained Roman Catholic in religion, and Austrian in politics, till this day. He was quite ready to admit that there appeared to be objections to both the plans before the

-

opinion were consistent with the simplicity enjoined by Christianity upon its professors and so long as the Government thought it satisfactory to give an archbishop 15,000l. a year, as the noble Lord did in his last appointment to the primacy of the Church-a sum far greater than the Prime Minister or any Secretary of State received-so long as that was the case he (Mr. Bright) should consider it might be

impossible, out of the other resources of | His conclusion from this was that really the Church, to find a sum to maintain the the question of church rates, if the House fabrics of the Church. And again, it would but grapple with it, would be very should be borne in mind that the 300,000l. easily settled. There was one mode of or 600,000l., or whatever was the amount dealing with it, proposed by a Government of church rates raised yearly, was at pre- of which the noble Lord was a Member, sent a great deal wasted. In his own pa- which calculated 250,000l. as enough to rish 7001 of church rates used lately to be maintain the fabric of the Church, and levied; but recently, by having the matter proposed to take that out of the improvelooked into, it had been brought down to ment and due application of her property. 1501., and the Dissenters were no longer Supposing the House not to approve that, troubled by a demand for this impost; and they might pass a Bill for the simple purlast Easter each of the two sets of candi- pose of abolishing church rates, and in dates who stood for the office of church- that case he would undertake to say that warden claimed the support of the parish- by the voluntary contributions of the perioners on the express ground that they sons who attended the churches throughnever would make any further call for out England and Wales, either by periodchurch rates. He spoke of Rochdale, ical contributions or by contributions on which had a population of between 70,000 occasions when a sermon was preached for and 80,000 souls. He believed that the that purpose, they would raise in every voluntary principle was taking as exten- parish as much money as would be necessive root amongst the members of the Es- sary fairly to support the fabric of the tablished Church themselves as among the Church. And if he were a Churchman— dissenting bodies, and of that being the such was his confidence in the liberality fact he thought there was evidence every- of those who went to church, if that libewhere. Take the case of the city of Man- rality were relied upon-he should have chester. There, out of about fifty churches, no hesitation in relieving from the burden there was only one not supported by volun- of church rates those who were not memtary contributions; and in Rochdale, there bers of the Church. The Church ought, in was only one church that was supported this respect, to be thrown upon her own reby church rates. So with regard to the sources; and he said that that Church could Free Church in Scotland-it had been re- not be worth support if she was so deadcently stated at a meeting in Edinburgh, ened to zeal, so careless of her faith, and that the voluntary principle within the last had so destroyed the vitality of her people, six years had done more to provide places as not to do that which was done by the of worship and religious instruction for the Free Church of Scotland, by the poor popeople, than the Establishment had in three pulation of Wales, and by the trampledcenturies. All we saw in Scotland showed on and insulted Catholics of Ireland. Did how wholly unnecessary compulsory rates any man suppose that a substitute for the were to any sect. In Ireland, again, we church rates could be voted out of the Consaw that that portion of the population solidated Fund? No Government, howwhich was poorest had built chapels in the ever strong, dare propose it; and if that most out-of-the-way places, where it was were impossible, what was to be their rea puzzle how they obtained funds. But source? It must be found either in the not only had they done this where there fruits of a better administration of the was but a sparse population-in many funds of the Church, or in the voluntary places they had built large churches and contributions of her congregations throughcathedrals, thus showing their zeal and out the country. He should be content the way in which they could contribute to with either of those propositions; and to the religion to which they were attached. one of them they must ultimately have Take then the case of Wales. There recourse. It would appear, from what eight-tenths of the population were dissenting bodies, and there was scarcely a hill-side or a valley in which one did not find the chapel of some dissenting sect. In Merthyr Tydvil, when he was there seven years since, there was only one Established Church; but there were actually twenty dissenting chapels supplied and built entirely by voluntary contributions.

VOL. CXXVII. [THIRD SERIES.]

had fallen from the noble Lord and from the right hon. Member for Morpeth (Sir George Grey), that as this question was settled in most of the large towns, as there were no serious agitations on it just at present, it did not require the attention of the House. Why, if in those towns the church-rate question was settled, it was settled contrary to the spirit of the existY

Brockman, E. D.
Brooke, Sir A. B.

Bruce, Lord E.
Buck, L. W.
Buller, Sir J. Y.
Burghley, Lord
Campbell, Sir A. I.
Cardwell, rt. hon. E.
Cavendish, hon. C. C.
Cayley, E. S.
Charteris, hon. F.
Cholmondeley, Lord H.
Christopher, rt. hn.R. A.
Clive, hon. R. H.
Clive, R.
Cobbold, J. C.
Cocks, T. S.
Coles, H. B.
Colville, C. R.

Coote, Sir C. H.
Corry, rt. hon. H. L.
Cowper, hon. W. F.
Cubitt, Ald.

ing law, and by the fact of the Dissenters | Bramston, T. W.
and what were called the liberal Church-
men having united together to put an end
to the system. But where there was one
such parish, one parish which escaped
church rates, there were more than ten
in which this grievance remained, and the
House, therefore, must not for a moment
that this was not a question still
suppose
having great interest for the people, and
still demanding a just and fair settlement.
He asked Churchmen, then, whether it
would not be better for the true and last-
ing interests of their Church to get rid
of it finally, and for ever? From all that
he had heard, the House was now more
ready than it ever had been to deal with
and to decide the question. He urged
them to do so, and felt sure that the plea-
sure they would thus give would not be
confined to Dissenters, but would be large-
ly shared in by those who were members
of the Church. As regarded the Resolu-
tions, if that of the hon. Member for the
Tower Hamlets were carried, he presumed
that that hon. Member would be ready, in
deference to the House, to withdraw that
part of it which regarded pew rents. If,
however, that Amendment was not carried,
and the Bill of the hon. and learned Mem-
ber for Tavistock was introduced, he con-
fessed he should like to have the interval
between this and the second reading to
consider its principle. It would be ex-
tremely difficult to vote against it, because
it did exempt those who were unfairly
taxed; still there were, on the other hand,
objections to it, and he did not at present
see how they were to be overcome.

MR. R. PHILLIMORE rose to reply, amidst loud cries for a division. He referred to the contradictory objections that had been urged against his measure, as proving that it was one of great moderation. Until yesterday morning he was perfectly ignorant of the provisions contained in Lord Stanley's pamphlet. He contended that his measure had been much misrepresented by the right hon. Member for Morpeth (Sir G. Grey) especially as regarded its operation on Dissenters. Question put. The House divided :— Ayes 185; Noes 207: Majority 22.

List of the AYES.

Acland, Sir T. D.
A'Court, C. H. W.
Adderley, C. B.
Atherton, W.

Baines, rt. hon. M. T.
Bankes, rt. hon. G.

Baring, rt. hon. Sir F.T.
Baring, T.

Barrington, Viset.
Blair, Col.

Davies, D. A. S.
Dent, J. D.

Dering, Sir E.
Disraeli, rt. hon. B.
Duckworth, Sir J. T. B.
Egerton, Sir P.
Egerton, W. T.
Egerton, E. C.
Elliot, hon. J. E.
Esmonde, J.
Euston, Earl of
Fellowes, E.
Ferguson, Sir R.
Fitzgerald, W. R. S.
Fitzroy, hon. N.
Follett, B. S.

Forester, rt. hon. Col.
Forster, Sir G.
Frewen, C. H.
Gallwey, Sir W. P.
Galway, Viset.
Gladstone, rt. hon. W. E.
George, J.

Gladstone, Capt.
Graham, rt. hon. Sir J.
Graham, Lord M. W.
Granby, Marq. of
Greenall, G.
Greene, T.
Grenfell, C. W.
Grogan, E.
Grosvenor, Earl
Hale, R. B.
Hamilton, G. A.
Hanbury, hon. C. S. B.

Harcourt, G. G.

Hayes, Sir E.

Hayter, rt. hon. W. G.
Heathcote, Sir G. J.
Heathcote, G. II.
Heneage, G. H. W.
Heneage, G. F.
Herbert, rt. hon. S.
| Hervey, Lord A.
Hildyard, R. C.
Hughes, W. B.
Hume, W. F.
Ingham, R.
Jermyn, Earl

Lowther, hon. Col.
Lytton, Sir G. E. L. B.
Macartney, G.

MacGregor, J.
Manners, Lord G.
Manners, Lord J.

Masterman, J.

Maxwell, hon. J. P.

Meux, Sir H.

Miles, W.

Michell, W.

Molesworth,rt.hn. SirW.
Moncreiff, J.

Moody, C. A.

Montgomery, Sir G.

Morgan, C. R.

Mulgrave, Earl of

Mullings, J. R.

Mundy, W.

Murphy, F. S.
Naas, Lord
North, Col.
Ossulston, Lord
Paget, Lord A.

Pakington, rt. hn. Sir J.
Palmer, R.
Palmerston, Viset.

Parker, R. T.

Peel, Sir R.

Peel, F.
Peel, Col.

Percy, hon. J. W.
Philipps, J. H.

Portal, M.

Portman, hon. W. H. B.

Rolt, P.

Repton, G. W. J.

Rumbold, C. E.

Russell, Lord J.

Russell, F. C. H.
Sandars, G.

Sawle, C. B. G.

Seaham, Viset.

Seymer, H. K.

Seymour, Lord
Smijth, Sir W.
Smollett, A.
Somerset, Capt.
Sotheron, T. H. S.
Spooner, R.
Stafford, A.

Stafford, Marq. of

Stanhope, J. B.

Stanley, Lord

Gaskell, J. M.

Gibson, rt. hon. T. M.

Goddard, A. L.

Goderich, Viset.

Gooch, Sir E. S.
Goodman, Sir G.
Gower, hon. F. L.
Greaves, E.
Greene, J.
Gregson, S.

Grey, rt. hon. Sir G.
Grosvenor, Lord R.
Gwyn, H.
Hadfield, G.
Hall, Sir B.

Halsey, T. P.
Hanmer, Sir J.
Harcourt, Col.
Hardinge, hon. C. S.
Hastie, A.
Hastie, A.
Headlam, T. E.
Heywood, J.
Heyworth, L.

Phinn, T.

Pigott, F.

Pilkington, J.

Question proposed

TELLERS.

Clay, Sir W.

Peto, S. M.

"That the words this House do resolve itself into a Committee, to consider whether church rates should not be abolished, and provision made for the charges to which such rates are at present applicable from pew rents, and from the increased value which inquiries instituted by authority of the Crown have shown may be derived, under better management, from church lands and property,' be added to the word 'that' in the original Question."

Amendment proposed to the said proposed Amendment

་

To leave out from the word House' to the end of the said proposed Amendment, in order to add the words is of opinion that the present mode of levying church rates for the repairs of the edifices, and for the service of the Church of England, shall henceforth cease, as by law has Howard, hon. C. W. G. been already accomplished in Ireland; and that Hume, J. the amount required for the service of the Church

Hindley, C.

Hotham, Lord

should in future be supplied from the funds be-nated by Members who were interested in longing to the Church of England, and at the disposal of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners,' instead thereof."-Mr. Hume.

Main Question, as amended, put— "That this House do resolve itself into a Committee, to consider whether church rates should not be abolished, and provision made for the charges to which such rates are at present appli-power to send for persons, papers, and recable-from pew rents, and from the increased cords." He thought that in cases where value which inquiries instituted by authority of parties brought forward Motions and exthe Crown have shown may be derived, under pressed strong opinions in regard to matbetter management, from church lands and pro-ters in which the personal honour of other perty."