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in the contriving of it; and therefore I think no great De- Anno 32Car.II. bate will be neceffary about it, before fuch a Bill be brought in. And I believe it will be found more likely to be serviceable, in cafe the Papifts be banished; and therefore I conceive, a Bill for banishment of all the confiderable Papists out of England, may be very neceffary: And if at the fame time that we endeavour to fecure ourselves against Popery, we do not alfo do fomething to prevent arbitrary Power, it will be to little purpofe; for the one will be fure to have a Hand to bring in the other; and I think nothing can prevent that, or rather both, better than frequent Parliaments. And therefore I humbly move you, that a Bill for fecuring frequent Parliaments may be taken into your Confideration.'

* Sir, I think you are well advised, that the Way to fecure Sir G. Hunourfelves effectually against Popery, is to fecure our felves alfo gerford. against arbitrary Government; and that the having of frequent Parliaments is the best Way to fecure both; and therefore, Sir, I think you may do well to move the House, that a Committee be appointed to infpect what old Laws there are, for enforcing the fitting of frequent Parliaments; that if they fhould be found deficient, fome new Laws may be made for that Purpose. I do agree, that a Bill for banishing out of England the most confiderable Papifts, may do well; but I hope, Sir, that if you banish the Men, you will banish fome Women too; for I do believe, that fome of that Sex have been great Inftruments, in bringing about our Ruin. And if in time you will confider, how to prevent the Royal Family's marrying Popish Women, it would be of great Security for hereafter. For I am of Opinion, that the late Queen Mother's Zeal for her Religion, was not only a great Occafion (amongst many others) of the Miferies that befel us in 41; but the great Caufe of all our Mileries now, by perverting the Duke from his Religion, as is reported; and may reafonably be believed, if we conclude, that he had that motherly Care for the Salvation of her Children, as other Mothers ufually have; for, according to her Opinion, it was not to be obtained out of the Pale of that Church: And no Man can doubt, but that the Proteftant Intereft hath been much prejudiced, by his Majefty's marrying a Princefs of that Religion: For we have plainly feen, fince the Difcovery of the Plot, how fome of the moft material Jefuits, and Popish Inftruments, have fheltered themfelves under her Royal Protection; and how they have helped to carry on the Plot, being fo impudent, as to pretend they had her Patronage, and by abufing her Authority; but more especially by the Duke's marrying the Princefs of Modena; because of her near relation to the Popes and Cardinals. All which was plainly foreseen by that Parliament which met a little before that Marriage

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Anno 12 Car.II. Marriage in 1673, and therefore they made an Addrefs to his Majefty, reprefenting the faid ill Confequences; defiring him not to permit it, because it would tend to the Deftruction of the Proteftant Religion. But their Endeavours were defeated by that Party, as we may guefs, feeing we find fo much Ufe of her Name in Coleman's Letters; for well might they who have over-ruled in fo many great Affairs, as hath been inftanced in this Houfe, have an Influence alfo in this, that fo that Party might not want fo useful an Inftrument in fo great a Station; and fo the Parliament's Addrefs miscarried; but that they had either a good Judgment, or prophetic Spirit, I hope will never mifcarry, but remain upon Record. And unless you believe, that thefe Ladies are lefs compaffionate than others ufually are, how can it be otherwife, their Principles confidered? But, Sir, I will not trouble you farther about it; but fuppofe it may be worth your Confideration in due time. In the Interim, I agree for the Bill of Banishment and Affociation too.

William

Harbord.

. Sir, it is not to be doubted, but that Popery and arbitrary Government are fo near of kin, that they cannot be separated; and therefore, if we deftroy the one, we need not fear the De ftruction of the other. Before our late miferable Wars, Popery was more in masquerade; and arbitrary Power, the Loans, Monopolies, and Ship-money, more invifible; now Popery is more visible, except in the Bufinefs of the Exchequer, which amounting to above one Million of Money, we may not admire we have not heard of more great Things of that kind, fince efpecially; being we know how averfe the King is to hearken to fuch Advice; but our Fears of Popery are the ftronger, because of the Popish Succeffor; and therefore I cannot but commend the Policy of thofe who are tender in ufing arbitrary Proceedings at this Time, left the Fears and Jealoufies that might arife from both together should prove intollerable.

"I must confefs, Sir, I am at a great lofs what to offer to your Contideration in this Matter; for our Danger is not only from the Strength of the Popish Party, but from the Weakness of the Proteftants by reason of the Arimofities which they fow amongst us, not only in Points of Religion, but of Intereft too. For of late they have not been content with carrying on the Defign of dividing the Churchmen and Fanatics, but of ar raigning the laft Parliament as omnipotent and dangerous, for going about to difinherit the Duke. They endeavour to divide the People in their Opinions as to Parliaments, and to render them incompatable with the Government, that, fo, if: poffible, they may keep the Proteftant Intereft divided, an work them to deftroy themselves, by engaging Party against Party, in hopes at laft to have but one Party to deal with, and

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to have an Opportunity of gaining the weakest to their fide Anno 32Car. If by Affurances of Liberty of Confcience, or otherways, which muft certainly be the Confequence of fuch a Conteft. And although I am very unwilling to detract from the Merits of our Churchmen, for whom I have a great Veneration, yet I cannot but obferve, how that ever fince the Trial of Wakeman was over, but more about the Time of the Prefbyterian Plot, they preached up (especially in public Affemblies) the Danger of Fanatics to be more than of Papifts; and that to difinherit the Duke was against the Law of God. Which faid Opinions, if they should be imbibed by the People, what will your Affociation-Bill fignify,or any other Law you can make against Popery? Sir, I do not mention these things to you without a great deal of Regret; for I am well known to be a true Friend of the Church, and have (when I was thought worthy to be in Commiffion) expreft my self a fevere Enemy to Fanaticifm. But however, I cannot but observe this ftrange Contradiction, of pretending to keep out Popery, and yet at the fame time to endeavour to divide the Proteftant Intereft, and to referve a Right to make a Papist King. I must confefs, I am more diftracted from the ill Confequences I fear from fuch Contrivances as thefe, than from the Strength of the Papifts themselves. They will certainly go on with their Intereft, as long as they are fecure of fuch Auxiliaries. Thefe Things must be confidered in the drawing your Bill, that fo the Remedy you propofe may be proportionable to your Difeafe. For an Act of Affociation may be feveral ways evaded by fuch Opinions as thefe, if they should grow amongst the People; and it will be an irreparable Blow to the Proteftant Intereft to accept of fuch an Expedient, if it fhould prove ineffectual. And therfore it ought to be fo drawn, as may provide for all the Contrivances of that Party: For, Sir, I cannot imagine that ever Popery will attempt to come into this Nation bare-faced, but do expect that the Defign will always be carried on, as hitherto, under fome difguife, either by a Toleration in favour of tender Confciences, or in the Name of Churchmen, or a loyal Party, for the Defence of the Church or Government, to which fome Presbyterian Plot would much conduce, and be an excellent Pretence for raifing of an Army, and apprehending or difarming of fuch Perfons as are moft likely to oppofe that Intereft. I muft confefs, Sir, I have not very well digefted what I have faid to you on this Subject; but unless you can change the Intereft at Court, and remove these Counsellors that are fo much for the Duke, I think you may juftly fear all thefe Stratagems, and that it will be impoffible to contrive any Affociation-Bill that can provide against them. And therefore, that we may not spend our Time in vain, I would humbly move you, Sir, TOME II.

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Anno.32 Car.II. to go on with the Bill of Banishment, which is most likely to do you fome Service. At least, by it we fhall fee, whether any thing will be granted against Papifts, or no: For this Purpose it will be neceffary, that the House be moved, that the Knights, Citizens, and Burgefles be commanded to bring in a Lift of all the moft confiderable Papists in England, in order to banish the most notorious.

I. B. perhaps
Col. Birch.

Sir, I retain a good Opinion of an Affociation-Bill, notwithstanding what hath been faid, as to the Weakness it may receive from our unhappy Divifions in Points of Religion and Intereft, too much promoted by fome of our Clergy. For, Sir, when I confider how the Laudean Principles, as to raifing of Money without Parliaments in the late Times, infected most of our Clergy, fo as that they not only preached up the King's abfolute Authority over Men's Properties, but branded with the Title of Rebels, and condemned to hell those that offered to argue against it: I do conclude, that it is ufual for one or two Bishops to give Measures or Directions to the rest of the Bishops, and they to the Clergy of their fe veral Dioceffes: And that therefore the Clergy derive their Politics generally from one or two Bishops in fome great Station. Yet, Sir, when I remember how, after fome little Time, many of the Clergy fell off, and would not follow fuch Inftructions; and how the People foon excufed themselves from following their Advice in fuch Politics, and would not freely pay illegal Taxes, notwithstanding all their Endeavours; I am apt to think, Sir, that as the People were not long then mifled, fo as to fubmit to lose their Property, fo they will not now to any Thing that fhall tend to the lofing of their Religion and Property both. They will foon difcover what is their Intereft, and how true Intereft will not lye. I have often told you within thefe Walls, they will foon apprehend that Popery will bring in Slavery, and reduce them not only to an idolatrous, fuperftitious Religion, but to wear wooden Shoes like the French, and to eat Herbs like the Spaniard, because they will foon know that they fhall not be long Mafters of any Thing they have: And however they may be perfuaded for a while, I am confident they will at laft confult how to fave their Bacon. They will difcern that the Clergy may be good Divines, but not fo good Politicians; and that there may be fome Difference in point of Intereft between them and the Clergy, becaufe Clergymen may be in a Poffibility of being adavnced by Popery if they fubmit; but the Laity under a Probability of lofing all, notwithstanding all fubmiffions. Sir, I do not trouble you with this Difcourfe out of a Fear that our Clergy will not fhew themfelves good Pro teftants; for I have that Veneration for them, and Opinion of them as to believe that many of the Bishops and Clergy too

would

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would as foon die for the Proteftant Religion as many Perfons Anno 32 Car.II. in the Nation. But I am jealous that there is fome over-awing Power got in amongst them, fomething anfwerable to that of a Popish Succeffor in the State; by whofe Means thofe Bills were fo eafily pafs'd in the late long Parliament, under a Pretence that they were for the Prefervation of the Proteftant Religion, which the Commons then found, and any Perfon that will now perufe them may find, would infallibly have brought in Popery: And how, fince the Plot, the Danger of Fanatics is cried up more than that of the Papifts; and how tender they are in the Point of a Popish Succeffor, or joining in any thing that is against him. But though these Things make me jealous there is fome body that mifleads them now in Matters relating to Popery, as formerly in Things relating to Property; yet I am of Opinion that they will ere long fee, that to ftand up for the Intereft of a Popish Succeffor, to have a Popifh King, to weaken the Proteftant Intereft, and speak ill of Parliaments, is not the right Way to preferve the Proteftant Religion; but a plain Contradiction, and an Invention of Jefuits. And therefore, Sir, I am for going on with the Affociation-Bill; for I will never doubt that the true Intereft of the Nation, in fo great a Concern as this, will long be baffled by fuch Projectors. And therefore it is my Defire that the House may be moved to appoint a Committee to draw up a Bill for that Purpose.'

Sir, I think you have been well moved, as well for the Sir William Affociation-Bill as the Banishing-Bill. By the one, you will Hickman, fend your Enemies out of the Country; by the other be in a good Condition to keep them out, which may go a great way to fecure us.'

Šir F. R. Sir J. H. and Mr. L. G. for the Banifhing-Bill.

Sir, I am not against any of thefe Bills, because they may Sir Nich be all convenient for the prefent Occafion; but if any Man Carew. think that these Bills will do without the Succeffion Bill, I believe they will find themselves mistaken: For these Bills will fignify nothing, unless you can remove your Popish Succeffor, and your Popish Intereft. Thefe Bills will not reach your Papifts in Mafquerade, who will certainly continue as long as there is a Popish Succeffor, and make your BanishingBill, and Affociation-Bill too, as ineffectual as white Paper. Let fuch as I could name to you have the Command of the Sea-Ports, (as I fuppofe they will without my naming them) and in the Lieutenancy, and Commiffion of the Peace, and when the prefent Heat is over, let the Papifts come back when they will, they will have no Caufe to doubt having a kind Reception. For you must not expect to have plain ruftic Country Gentlemen, in fuch Commands, but well bred Courtiers, and some good, eafy, credulous Gentlemen that will

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