measures for which they themselves that desire by reducing the establishhad voted? He trusted that those ments before they pressed for a reducGentlemen who had voted for the pre-tion of the revenue; they should seek sent Bill on a former night, would re- to lessen the public expence, before consider their conduct, and take a they proposed to lessen the public recourse this evening more consistent venue. If an individual desired to with their own principles, and with economise, would he begin by reducing the general interest of the country. his rents, instead of reducing his expences? Certainly not; and the same rule which applied to an individual was also applicable to public affairs. He was not one of those who despaired of our resources if the country had fair play, and what he meant by fair play was this, that while every possible economy, for which he was as anxious as any man, should be duly consulted, peculiar care should be taken for the maintenance of a permanent Sinking Fund. Being upon this subject, he must take occasion to express his decided reprobation of any such breach of public faith, or spoliation of the public creditor, as had been lately

Mr. GRENFELL deprecated the idea of getting rid of the Sinking Fund, he meant of that substantial, real Sinking Fund which consisted of a surplus of our income over our expenditure It did appear from financial papers upon the Table, that we had such a Sinking Fund or surplus income, and that fund he would by no means consent to touch for the purpose of affording any temporary relief to the country. It was in his view the imperative duty of Ministers to preserve the establishment of a Sinking Fund, as well for the gradual extinction of the public debt as for the moral effect of keeping up the public credit. Upon the mea-heard of out of doors, and sometimes sure before the House, it was his lot in that House. He lamented to find to differ from the general opinion of hints upon this subject becoming too his friends around him. But having, familiar among the landed proprietors; in 1819, voted for the imposition of for they ought to be aware, that if the three millions of taxes for the purpose property of the Fuudholder was deof sustaining the Sinking Fund, he stroyed, there could be no security for should feel himself guilty of a gross their own. Without entering into the dereliction of principle, if he voted for question whether the land of the counthe proposed repeal of one of the taxes try were mortgaged to the Fundholder, comprehended in that sum. It had he warned the landowners to consider been stated as one of the arguments that the fundholders had quite as much for this repeal, that if taxes were taken right to invade their property, as the off, Ministers would then be forced to landowners had to invade the Funds. adopt measures of economy, [hear, But to return to the subject before the hear, hear!]. But to this argument House-if taxes were to be repealed; he should say, that its advocates were if any of the existing taxes could be proposing to begin at the wrong end repealed, he could not help thinking [hear, hear, hear!]. If Gentlemen de- that the Malt Tax was not the first; on säred to economise, they should evince the contrary, he thought that the Salt

was known to be much more oppressive. He was not aware, indeed, that the Malt Tax, to which the Bill referred, bore any oppressive character, and he was assured that its repeal would not afford any relief to the agriculturists, which was the professed object of the measure, while such repeal must reduce the resources necessary to maintain that important establishment-a really available Sinking Fund.

Tax ought rather to be selected, as it in this country at a cheaper rate now than formerly? and why then might not the proposed Bill be agreed to? The Honourable Gentleman who had delivered an eloquent speech on the other side (Mr. Ward,) had, in his solicitude for the Sinking Fund, pronounced an eulogium upon Mr. Pitt and Mr. Fox, as the advocates of that system; but the Honourable Gentleman had omitted to class the present Chancellor of the Exchequer with the objects of praise. This, indeed, was a very proper omission, for the Right Honourable Gentleman on the other side had reduced a Sirking Fund of 17 millions to about 2 millions, which sum bore so small a proportion to 900 millions, that this reduced sum might be very expediently applied to present exigencies. He would therefore supply a proportion of that sum, if necessary, to make good any deficit created by the repeal of this Malt Tax. He was an advocate for the repeal of this Tax, not because he thought it would afford any great relief to the agriculturists, but because he thought it the only relief which, from all appearances they had reason to expect. Committee sitting for some weeks to examine evidence as to agricultural distress, which was matter of notoriety; and from the proceedings of that Committee, or from any other legislative measure, he was much afraid that no

Mr. LOCKHART declared that he never heard in that House any recominendation to violate the public faith, or to commit any spoliation upon the public creditor. But he had heard much in that House, as well as elsewhere, upon the extraordinary character of the system by which those who were the great receivers of the public revenue were exempted from paying their due share of the charges upon that revenue (hear, hear!); and certainly it was monstrous to suppose that such a system should go on-that while the receivers of the revenue, or the fundholders, enjoyed the whole, those who owned the property from which that revenue was derived, should be called upon to pay the whole, although all their property was reduced no less than 50 per cent. in value. The continuance of such a system, indeed, would serve to render the latter the ascripti glebæ, or the mere serfs of the former. With respect to the esta-relief was to be expected. For this blishments which had been voted, it might be necessary to keep them up, but it did not follow that the expence of those establishments might not be reduced. As all the necessaries and comforts in life had fa len in price, why might not an army be maintained upon this subject furnished ample in

He saw a

Bill, then, as it offered the only relief which the agriculturists had to expect, he should give his vote. Here the Honourable Member presented an im-pressive picture of the extent of the agricultural distress. But the petitions

formation upon that subject. The and defrauded by bad measures, For condition of agriculture was, indeed, this evil he recommended some regalasuch, that the farmer had no profit, tion with respect to the mode of grantand the landlord had therefore no rent, ing licences., Reverting to the state of but what he derived from the farmer's agriculture, he expressed his belief capital, and as that capital diminished, that Ministers were not aware of the the means of course fell off of em- extent of its actual distress. For alploying the labouring poor. How, he though commercial distress was readily, would ask, was it possible that such a ascertained through the non-payment state of things should continue? or of bills, the distress of agriculturists, who could answer for the tranquillity who were not in the habit of dealing of the country, if an increasing pro-in bills, was not so easily made known, portion of the millions employed in But the misery which awaited this class, Agriculture were thrown out of em- unless some great measure of relief ployment, and if those who could not were administered, it was quite direfind employment, could not obtain pro-ful to contemplate. After noticing the vision from the Poors' Rate. He had comments of the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. heard much of the political economy Ward) as to the votes of certain Genof the Chancellor of the Exchequer | tlemen upon this Bill, who had formerly and that of the Gentlemen near him, supported Mr. Pitt's system, the Hon. who so often said that those things Member expressed his disapprobation would right themselves; but he wished of the idea that Gentlemen should alto know from these economists by what low themselves to be restrained by any process such things could be righted, or prior principle or connexion from the equilibrium so much desired could acting upon an honest change of be restored? The Honourable Mem- opinion. ber animadverted upon the inconsistency of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who, after the repeal of the Income Tax, came down to give up this Malt Tax observing, with great apparent liberality, that as the rich had been relieved, the poor should be relieved also, and therefore he proposed the Repeal of this Tax in 1816; yet, in 1819, the Right Honourable Gentleman again brought forward this very tax (hear, hear!) The Honourable Member romarked upon the system of monopolising public-houses throughout the country, by which the brewers were enabled to sell what they pleased-by which, indeed, the poor were compelled to buy bad beer,

Mr. J. SMITH said, that differing as he did upon this question from the friends with whom he usually acted, he felt it necessary to state the reasons which had produced that difference. He had, he could assure the House, examined the subject of the present Bill with all the care and solicitude in his power, and he had arrived at a very different conclusion from that stated by his Honourable Friend who had just sat down. With the distress suffered by the agricultural classes, he sympathized as much as any man, but he could not think that the proposed repeal would afford any general relief to that body, while it would afford no relief to the consumers of beer, as the

reduction of eight or nine shillings in | single individual conversant with the

concern, the observations which had fallen from some individuals in that House, for whom he entertained the highest respect, on the subject of the national debt. It had been stated from the high and respectable quarter to which he alluded, that it was idle,

the quarter of malt would not produce subject who did not pronounce it to be a reduction of one halfpenny in the one of the wildest and most profligate quart of porter or ale. Therefore, all jobs that had ever been engaged in. the profits of the proposed repeal With respect to the works at Sheerwould rest in the pockets only of the ness, Milford Haven and Woolwich, public and private brewers. The Ho- the question was, could the country do nourable Member recommended a re- without them? If we could do withvision of the poor laws, with a view out them, they ought not to be perseto the relief of public distress, and vered in under the present distressed especially that persons applying for circumstances of the country. Unless relief should be granted none, unless we retraced our steps, the distress of they consented to labour. For this the agriculturists would not be the labour they should be allowed some-only distress which would be felt. thing less than the neighbouring far-There was one other topic to which mers usually granted, and this system he wished to advert before he sat would have the double effect of re-down. He had heard, with the utmost ducing the amount of the Poors' Rate, and of stimulating labouring paupers to seek employment for themselves. This system had been acted upon for some time in his own parish, and he wished it were made general. He was anxious indeed that the Right Hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr.under the present circumstances of the S. Bourne) who had already rendered so much service upon this subject, would take this question into his serious consideration. Another mode of relieving the public distress was, by attending to that economy which was so often and so fruitlessly recommended in that House. But Ministers were not alone to blame for inattention to economy. That House had also its share of blame, for it assented to the expenditure of nearly a million of money for the erection of a building, which he had that day seenen-he meant the Penitentiary at Milbank.-Another million of money had been expended in the Caledonian Canal in Scotland, and he must say, with regard to this project, that he had never heard a

country, to talk of preserving the national faith. He (Mr. S.) considered that opinion, as well as many others which he had heard on the same subject, to have arisen from very erroneous and mistaken views. He thought there never was a moment which could be more ill chosen for the promulgation of such an opinion than the present. Whether this country had done right or wrong in contracting a large increase of national debt, it was no more than every other Power in Europe had done, and those Powers were now paying the public creditor at a much larger rate of interest than ourselves. The promulgation of such opinions had had the effect of producing much serious alarm in the

and because it would very naturally diminish the Revenue. The only way of extricating the country from its distresses, would be to cut off boldly and firmly all expenditures which were not essentially necessary. The Army

minds of many persons abroad, who | income of the coun'ry, we religiously 'were not tempted by the high rate of abstained from taxing foreign property interest in foreign countries, and who vested in the English Funds.-There kept property to a large amount in the was no one act which had more conEnglish Funds. He had himself re-tributed to raise this country in the ceived a communication from a person estimation of foreign nations, than the of high rank abroad, in which he ex-act to which he had just alluded; and pressed the utmost surprise that Eng- he trusted the House would never give land, which had been the bulwark for its sanction to any measure, the immeall Europe in the hour of danger, diate consequences of which would should now, at a period of profound be to deprive the nation of that repupeace, think of violating her faith with [tation which it had so honourably acthe public creditor. Was it possible quired.-With regard to the repeal of they who advocated the expediency of the present tax, he objected to it, be-such a measure, should not see that cause he thought it would not have the the non-payment of a part of the in-effect of relieving the Agriculturists, terest of the public debt, would be instantly followed by the most alarming and ruinous consequences? Were they aware that there were no less than 8 or 900,000 stockholders in this country? If the House reflected upon this circumstance, and upon the multi-ought unquestionably to be farther tude of corporations, hospitals, insu- reduced. The Navy Estimates were rance offices, and other interests, the whole property of which was vested in the public funds, it was quite clear that they would be committing an act of felo de se, if they entertained for a moment any proposition for violating the national faith. The energies exerted by this country in the last war had not only been the means of saving ourselves, but of preserving the state of civilised society throughout Europe. The character which Great Britain had acquired, and hitherto maintained, was that of affording an asylum for property throughout the world. With a degree of generosity which he be- Mr. CURWEN said, he felt obliged lieved was perfectly unparalleled in to the Honourable Gentleman below the annals of ancient and modern his-him (Mr. J. Smith) for having extory, at a time when our internal tax-pressed his sympathy with the disation amounted to a tenth part of the tresses of the Agriculturists, but he

not yet before the House, but he would himself undertake to shew, that very large reductions might and must be made in that department. The Honourable Member concluded by declaring his intention to vote against the motion.

Sir J. BOUGHEY said, he could not feel himself justified in supporting the repeal of this tax, unless he were assured by those Honourable Gentlemen who voted for the repeal, that it was looked upon as a measure of economy, and not as a substitute for any other measure of taxation